Welcome to The Panel where two bootstrappers talk about building a better business and a better life. I'm Justin Jackson, the cofounder of transistor.fm.
Brian:And I'm Brian Casel. I am building buildermethods.com.
Justin:Alright. And, yeah, I've got a few things I wanna chat about today. Just a little preview. I went to podcast movement in Dallas. Got lots of thoughts about the podcast industry.
Brian:Alright.
Justin:Went and took my eldest son. So my eldest daughter's in college, but my eldest son to college in Toronto. And while I was there, I met up with a bunch of our friends, and that was really interesting. Very nice.
Brian:I wanna hear all about that.
Justin:Been thinking about effort versus outcome. And
Brian:I actually just caught your your your quick, like, six minute podcast about that. Oh, nice. It's funny. It's it's an exact we yeah. We'll have a lot to talk about on on that one.
Justin:Yeah. What's going on in your on your side?
Brian:I feel like I I think I did book the very first revenue in the Stripe account for Builder Methods. So that's Nice. It's not much, but I I sold a bunch of tickets for this first the very first workshop for Build
Justin:A Precipice. It's going.
Brian:So that so so this this live workshop that I'm selling tickets for is is gonna be happening on September 16. It's a Tuesday.
Justin:September 16.
Brian:So I haven't even really done a big push promotion wise for it, but I did send out, like, my first official builder methods newsletter last Friday, which I'm gonna be doing every Friday going forward. And it was sort of like a quick mention at at the top of that newsletter, like, to get, like, an early bird, you know, a a discounted ticket. I don't have the numbers in front of me, I think.
Justin:Well, Zach is in chat right now saying he got his ticket.
Brian:Yeah. Yeah. Zach Zach's always on top of it pretty fast. It's awesome. So I'm excited.
Brian:A little nervous, but
Justin:yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Awesome. And anything else? Anything else going on in your world?
Brian:Yeah. I mean, the the big thing well, so to go along with that that idea of the workshop, I plan to open up Builder Methods Pro, the the membership. I I feel like I have solidified my vision for what that's gonna be, and it's it's gonna be like a pitch that I include at on that workshop. I hope to hope to to sell the very first memberships around then, September 16, and I have some plans for a a longer term rollout for that. But then the bigger challenge or sort of good challenge that I that I think I'm working through right now is Agent OS.
Brian:It's it has pretty good traction. It it it's like the thing that people talk about the most and they inquire about the most, And it is a free and open source tool. Yeah. It has a it has a public GitHub page and everything. It it's got a bunch of stars.
Brian:It also has a bunch of issues and discussions and PR requests. And and so I'm thinking through how do I I wanna keep I wanna keep giving it love. I wanna keep building it. I I am building like a version two of the thing. Yeah.
Brian:But it is free. It is not a paid product. So I'm trying to reconcile, like, how do I actually provide some level of support? I also wanna make it like a a lead into Builder Methods Pro, like, offering pro like, you know, paid support. So we can get in into that.
Brian:But that's that's the big question on my mind. I I shot a message over to Adam Wathen to ask his take. I'm like, how do you handle a popular GitHub Yeah. Open source project? He knows a thing or two about that.
Brian:So Yeah. Yeah.
Justin:Sweet. Alright. So we got a lot to chat about. You know, one thing I wanna maybe just start off with this wasn't on the agenda to talk about, but I I've been thinking a lot about content. And you and I talk about this a lot.
Justin:What is human? You're the one that's always saying, like, people are going to be connecting with humans. This is why people are thinking about, you know, when they do Google searches, they append Reddit to the end of the search. I am just feeling in general, maybe because I've been browsing a lot more content because I've been traveling, but I I'm just exhausted with what algorithms give me. So as an example, like, this is a this is YouTube just not logged in.
Justin:And
Brian:By the way, like, the not logged in oh, I'm unless you're in, Incognito.
Justin:I'm in incognito. Yeah. Okay.
Brian:Like, the the not logged in state is, like, still basically logged in. They still have, like, data on your
Justin:Yeah. Mean, it's it's pulling up stuff on on Kelowna and but it's still I I think what I wanted to illustrate here is and I get this feeling on any algorithmic feed. LinkedIn, I get it on I get it everywhere. It's just this kind of it feels like when everybody's optimizing for the algorithm, it just all content becomes homogenous and
Brian:Yeah. It's not it's not helpful. I also like yeah. I totally agree with you. I do try to manage my feeds to battle that a little bit, but I also still get annoyed at it.
Brian:So it it depends on the on the network. In in terms of like Twitter and Blue Sky, which are like the two that I check all the time throughout every at least the workday. Yeah. I always stick stick to the the non algorithm tab. I always watch the following tab, which is like the old school chronological.
Brian:But even that is still like you know, what happens is like humans self edit themselves to play to the algorithm. And that makes even if I opt out of their algorithm feed, I'm just getting a lot of garbage from humans trying to op trying to edit themselves for the algorithm.
Justin:This is what I'm talking about. This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Brian:And there's like a small handful of people that I'm I'm probably actually friends with in real life that I when they tweet or something like, I'm really gonna pay attention to Yeah. To what they have to say because I sort of know them and trust and I'm interested in their story. But it's like everyone else who I have followed over the years, it it's like a it's it's always a question of like, do I still wanna keep following you or or
Justin:And I mean, I think it's hard for all of us because we're like
Brian:And I'm guilty of it. I mean, me too.
Justin:Me too. When you're on the receiving like, when you're looking through a feed And for a while, like, all the Twitter thread Thread Boys were were kind of guilty of this. It's just like content that's, like Ryan Hefner says, banal. It's it's it's It's not very deep, but it's kind of designed to maybe go viral. It's just like kind of there ready to get picked up because it's just shallow enough that, you know, people get excited about it to retweet it or whatever.
Justin:And I think what's interesting is like this idea of like, what goes popular? What gets picked up by the algorithm? What kind of appeals to humans most base desires, and whether that's even good content, if it's good for us as humans. And eventually, when your feed is just full of it, you just kind of feel like gross. Like you've just eaten a bunch of sugar.
Justin:And you're just kind of like going through it and going, man, there none of this makes me feel good. Yeah. I think the interesting thing for me is thinking about how can I show up in a more real way?
Brian:That's what I'm really trying to do more on Twitter and and and Blue Sky is try I'm trying to make that my most real and honest extension of what's actually on my mind at any given moment.
Justin:Mhmm.
Brian:And I'm not I like, I do I do announce things that I'm promoting. Like, I announced today's podcast. I I announced my workshop. Like, I'm still gonna do that when I have something that I wanna promote. But but outside of those kind of posts, like, I'm really I'm talking about Twitter and and Blue Sky specifically here.
Brian:It's it's really for me now, it's really about just building pub like, what I'm most interested in what I'm actually working on. So I'm just gonna talk about things that happen to be on my mind, in my work, and in my craft. Right?
Justin:Yeah.
Brian:I'm not scheduling things in advance over there. It's just like whatever comes out.
Justin:Yeah. The the the other thing it made me think of is so, like, with the algorithm, we're all, like, trying to optimize for, like, views and retweets and likes. And the idea is that bigger numbers make us they do make us feel good. Like, when you release some form of content, it feels good to get you know, understand that people are engaging with it. But I've I've been thinking a lot lately about this idea of Kelly's a thousand true fans.
Justin:And thinking about it in a different in a way that he didn't originally kind of intend. But like this idea that maybe these big numbers actually don't matter as much as we think they do. Like, you're getting for example, you're getting like tens of thousands of views on your your Claude videos on YouTube. But what's really important like, for example, this podcast, what's really important are these people who show up in chat. Right?
Justin:Like, these are representatives of our true fans.
Brian:These are the crowd. This is the hardcore crew.
Justin:And Yeah.
Brian:We, you know, we love you guys. Yeah. But I I also think that we we do have a loyal listener base of people who just aren't live chat people, and they're gonna listen to the recording.
Justin:Well, even that, I mean, RSS feeds, I think, also represent kind of the the core audience Because you have to really look for an RSS feed, and then you have to opt in in a way that and then once you've opted in, you have to actually engage. You have to click play in your podcast player, and that's requesting the file. So whatever shows up in our podcast stats is basically reflective of, like, who are the core fans that are, like, here with us. And
Brian:In terms of, like, marketing, I I do think about YouTube differently. So Twitter and Blue Sky, I don't even think of as marketing. Like, yes, I'm gonna send a promotional tweet once in a while because because that's what I happen to be working on. I'm I'm sharing it. But I am building in public because that's what I'm interested in thinking about and tweeting about.
Brian:But that is I have given up on trying to make Twitter or Blue Sky an actual marketing channel. That's what that's why I consider that to just be like, let me just try to be as me and authentic as possible because I because I like to hang out on those platforms. Right? Yeah. YouTube, I do care about the numbers because I treat that as my marketing channel.
Brian:Yeah. This business, my top of the funnel is YouTube. There's no question about it. So I definitely care about how many views and how many subscribers I'm getting on on YouTube. And I I I'm also I'm with you on the idea that, like, even probably even, like, especially the videos that get a really high number of views, you have to assume that a very, very small percentage of those are actual, like, returning visitors to my channel.
Brian:It's it's mostly the algorithm that sort of blew up on this one video. Mhmm. So if something gets 50,000 views, at least 40 k of those are just gonna be, like, first time viewers who who may be flyby viewers and and maybe did not hit that subscribe button Yeah. And and may never see my stuff again. Yeah.
Brian:But then and then, like, even among the couple thousand people who so, like, I think right now my channel is up to 13,000 subscribers. But, like, even among that number, there's a very small percentage that, like, actually remember me and what I'm all about.
Justin:Mhmm.
Brian:You know? Probably a larger number of those just subscribe to a lot of channels, you know? Yeah. But then then the most important number are the is like the email list. Like, that's that's the other thing.
Brian:That's like, okay. Yeah. That's somebody who has actively clicked over from YouTube, typed in their email address. And so then that's the number that I look in Kit and like, okay, that's an important number to me. But then an even more important number is the number of people who actually hit reply on email.
Brian:Oh, yeah. So so like I I have, you know, the auto response and and now my inbox is full of these replies and like, okay. Like, that's a smaller subset, but they're but they're more engaged. Right?
Justin:Yeah.
Brian:And and then you take that the next step and I'm and I'm offering a workshop ticket. And with the discount, it's $25. Like, super low price, but, like, that's that's another step toward engagement. Like, that that's how I I'm thinking about this funnel. Right?
Justin:Who's that weightlifter who who's famous for, like, having really kind of raw, like, unedited, not well shot videos? Who is that guy?
Brian:I don't know. All of them?
Justin:No. There's like because some a lot of them are really slick. But there's this one guy that's known for driving in his car. Let's see. Even his thumbnails aren't optimized, this one guy I'm thinking about.
Justin:I've And been thinking about that a lot. Just this idea of how am I showing up if I'm getting tired of really slick content that's designed for the algorithm. Like, it's not designed for humans. It's designed to please the algorithm gods. It just feels like there's got to be other people that are tired of it too.
Justin:And even if the masses are still consuming all this junk food, it feels like who I want to attract are these true fans or these real humans that are engaging in a deeper way with whatever I'm trying to communicate.
Brian:I tell you what, I think that there is a flip side to that. Because I think you're totally right that there It annoys me too, especially when it's so clear that everyone, whether it's YouTube or any other social platform, they're just trying to copy the formula that has worked for other people in terms of like what topics are they talking about or what is the format or the flow of their videos or how do they speak. Like, I mean, I see this all the time in my space, but you see it in every space, which is like, okay, there's a there's a new feature from Claude Code. Like, 15 different YouTubers are all gonna cover that same exact feature because it's the hot thing and they know it's gonna get a lot of clicks. Yeah.
Brian:I'm not interested in doing that. You know? To me, it's much more interesting both for me as the creator, and and I think this is actually how you win. You you'll have a lot of it's like a a batter in in baseball. Like, the best batters, the best home run hitters strike out more than anyone.
Justin:Mhmm.
Brian:You know? Yeah. When they hit, they hit. And like and like that's what it's all about, I think. It's it's so like when I when I'm coming up with a new idea for for YouTube, and I'm not saying I have it all figured out.
Brian:I'm just saying like what actually keeps it interesting for me to even do. Yeah. It's like, I'm only gonna make a video about something that I am thinking a lot about and I think is a unique and different take from what everyone else is currently talking about. Yes, I cloud code because that's generally popular because I happen to be using it a lot. But I wanna talk about something that, or like a take on it that people are not talking about.
Brian:And like, I don't care if there's any, there there probably isn't any evidence that my take is going to be received well. And I and I you can even see that in my last, like, three or four videos. You know, like I did one on, like, finding flow with AI coding agents. AI, a thing for developers is you get into flow state where you're just really deep in the code and it feels good. You're in it for a few hours.
Brian:We've lost that with AI because you're giving a prompt and then you're sitting there waiting and then you fix it and you lost that flow. I found a workflow where I'm getting that flow back. I did a whole video about that topic. It didn't completely flop, but like it didn't come near close to the other stuff. You know?
Justin:I think sometimes we're optimizing for this top line, which is, you know, I I want the, you know, the 20,000 views or the 20 whatever it is. But in this 5,000 views, maybe those are actually the more important humans.
Brian:You know, the other interesting thing, I just I see, my most recent one there
Justin:Yeah. It
Brian:says Pro Cloud Code. So that was a different that was sort of an experiment, that video. It was one of the first where I was really trying to target, not necessarily beginners, but it's just day one with Cloud Code, like people who have not used Cloud Code before. And so it's a little bit of a different What I'm noticing in the comments is it's a different audience who's seeing that video than the rest of my The rest of the videos are basically attracting Cloud Code power users. Yep.
Brian:And most of the comments are very positive. And I think that they're really resonating with Agent OS and everything that I have to say and my unique takes on this and, like, what it means to find workflows and this stuff. Whereas people who are on day one of using Cloud Code, maybe they just searched for Cloud Code or they're I'm finding it's attracting a lot more people who are, like, skeptical of AI in general. They are, you know, resentful of AI taking developers jobs. They have nasty, you know, YouTube comments that you see.
Brian:Like, I'm seeing a lot more of those in that video than I am in other ones. And like, that's a signal to me that like, okay, like, I thought I thought I might experiment with, like, seeing, like, what can I do to maybe attract maybe the beginner side of this market? Yeah. And and it and it the signal that I'm getting back is like, nah, I I don't I don't think I like what I'm seeing over there. So I'm going go back to what I've been doing.
Justin:That's interesting. By the way, the weightlifter I was talking about was Sam Sulik. Look his thumbnails. Like, he doesn't doesn't optimize these. It's just like
Brian:That could be a good strategy too. Like, again, like, that's attracting, like, human like, this looks raw. You know? Yeah.
Justin:That was somebody in the chat here. Debugaz. Sorry. I can't pronounce your name, but I I I was looking for this in in Google. Could not figure out who it was, but the panel chat comes through.
Brian:There you go.
Justin:Yeah. I I think I've just been thinking about this a lot. This was a post I posted on Blue Sky about this too. Like when everyone's optimizing for the algorithm, all content just becomes copycat content. And then, you know, originality is just getting replaced by people mimicking what else is working to the point where when I was at this podcast conference, I was talking to somebody and they said their approach for their corporate YouTube channel is to go out and find out what titles, thumbnails, and topics, and formats are working for other channels.
Brian:And they people are doing that. It drives me nuts. They duplicate it exactly.
Justin:Yeah. Almost exact same title, almost exact same description, almost exact same thumbnail. And then they're basically doing their take on the content. So they'll, you know, download the transcript and they'll be like, rewrite this, but for our company. It's like, what the fuck?
Justin:Like, that's that's where we are right now. We're just gonna be like and you saw this on Twitter too. Like somebody, you know, one of Saw Hill's tweets would blow up and then you'd see like six copycat tweets right after that. People just trying to get some of that juice.
Brian:My hope is that YouTube will YouTube's algorithm will still get better and better and reward the truly unique and like, it's it's not that, like, it'll it'll make the unique and and highest quality stuff go viral, but it will get it in front of the right people. If there's a few number of people and that could be great. That could be 10 new customers and that's all you need for it to see. But you're right that like, I I was literally just talking to someone the other day, that's their strategy. And that's what so many YouTubers are doing.
Brian:And to me, it's like I don't understand how you could even do that. I would never want to do that as my job, just scraping titles and and transcripts and and then just regurgitating them. Like, why is that a a, that sounds boring as as hell. I'm not gonna do it. Yeah.
Brian:B, like, I don't see how that's even remotely a good strategy to sell your product. Yes. At the end of the day, I think it was Jason Fried talking about this recently on their podcast, on the Rework podcast. Yeah. He talks about it like marketing is a transfer of enthusiasm.
Justin:Yes. That was a great article.
Brian:You know, it's just a transfer of enthusiasm. And and the and I I was just pulling up the old Steve Jobs video where he introduces the iPhone for the very first time on rewatching that always gives me goosebumps because he's the master at just presenting and like, hey, check this out. This is why we think it's freaking awesome. There's nothing wrong with saying, hey, I built this product. I'm selling it.
Brian:And I think it's fucking great. You should read it. You should use it.
Justin:Yes.
Brian:There's really nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. Because that is true authenticity. And if that's not even driving you to create the product in the first place, then what are we doing here?
Justin:What I love about this enthusiasm topic is because the truth is, of course, we want to be real. But if you're going to get people to look at your website or look at your video or read your blog post or whatever, you still have to be somewhat entertaining or engaging. But what's so great about this enthusiasm angle is that's just naturally magnetic. So you can be authentic. You're showing up as your true self who's excited about something.
Justin:But there's something about enthusiasm that's just like attracts people. They're like, oh, wow, this feels real. This person's fired up about it. And, you know, there's so many people who I started following online and then have since become friends who the reason I was originally kind of noticed them was their enthusiasm. Caleb Porzio, Wes Bos.
Justin:All of these people were like online and excited about what they were doing. And there is something magnetic about that and something real about it.
Brian:It's true. And and actually, Jason was talking about this, about what DHH has been working on with with Omarki, the the the Linux Yeah. OS thing that that he's been working on. And I and it you're right. It is magnetic.
Brian:It's like, why is that magnetic when somebody keeps talking, keeps tweeting, keeps sharing about some product that they're creating and putting out to the world? Yeah. Why does that actually attract a customer base? Like the whole idea of building in public, and I'm not talking about just sharing revenue graphs, I'm talking about like sharing your product that you created, why you're excited about it, transferring that enthusiasm. Why that's this goes back to just being human all the time.
Brian:Like, putting in years of of, like, being authentic on podcasts, being authentic on Twitter, you attract a small group of people who really care about you and your story, and they have a relationship with you So that when you get really, really fired up about something
Justin:Mhmm.
Brian:Like DHH is currently about this Omar key thing Yeah. People take notice. It's like, wow. Like, this person that I've been following, they seem really into this this Linux thing. Like Mhmm.
Brian:That that's weird. I I never even thought to think about Linux. But he seems really really fired up about it, and he keeps tweeting about it. Like, maybe I should pay attention. And that's that's the whole idea is like, I trust this person.
Brian:I trust their taste. They are excited. What am I missing over here? So may so so let me go see what that's all about. You know?
Justin:This makes me think maybe I'll let me talk about my trip to Toronto. So my son my two oldest kids are now in college. Sadie is in Victoria and Marty
Brian:That's gotta be such a trip. Just You know?
Justin:Just started going to college in Oakville, which is just a suburb of Toronto. So I've actually never been to Toronto. Like, I've been to the airport, but I've never, been been there. And so we went to get them set up. Downtown Toronto is incredible, actually.
Justin:It like it remind it feels like New York, but a bit cleaner. It's kinda like Chicago in that way.
Brian:When I was a kid. I haven't been there recently.
Justin:Oh, the energy is great. I mean, I just love being in a big city. It it felt so awesome. But then one of the things we did while we're there is I wanted to meet up with Adam Wavin. And then he kind of invited Caleb Porzio, lives in Buffalo.
Justin:So he drove up. Buffalo is only like two hours from Adam's house.
Brian:Yeah.
Justin:And so we all went to Adam's house. West Boss came out.
Brian:Yeah. You me a picture. That
Justin:was a power table right there. Yeah. Yeah. So here we all are. I loved this this was so fun because I realized nobody's seen me with my kids.
Justin:So these are
Brian:like That's your son there on the top right.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. That's Marty right there. And so so all these people that were you know, have known me for a long time, they were just like, what? This is your kid?
Justin:Like, this is what? Caleb was like, totally. And then my son Marty is super into Linux. So, we were talking about Omar Chee and all that.
Brian:Okay. I was gonna ask you, like, is he into so he's he's into, like, software and stuff?
Justin:Yeah. He's he's into computers. He's like, rebelled against his old dad and said, I'm not doing Mac OS anymore. I'm doing Linux. He did that when he was like 13.
Justin:Now he's 20.
Brian:So That means he's hardcore. Mean
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. He's and, you know, into it like more game development and C sharp programming and other things. But it was so fun to have this this hangout. And also just the some of the things we talked about.
Justin:Got to see Adam's new house, which is really cool. And even seeing like so Adam has in his house, he has big room. Like right after you enter in the front door, has a big room off to the left. And Steve comes over every day and works out of the room. It's like a coworking space in his house.
Justin:It's got a big long desk. And then Caleb was there working that day too. And there's like like it was interesting to see kind of the regular pattern of Adam's life. I've I've seen him with his kids before, and I've met his wife before. But to see him in his house and see him interacting with his kids
Brian:I I always wonder about that. It's like it's like you you see people in person at a conference or something, so then there's that level of it. Like, oh, you're lot taller. You're a lot shorter than you are than I think you are. But then there's the whole other element of life.
Brian:Meeting someone's significant other, meeting their kids.
Justin:Yeah, I want to do this more often. I think it's really healthy for my online relationships. And also just like one of the things we talked about at this this lunch was like, it'd be cool to do a conference where we do bring our families and our kids just because it adds so much color and context. And even to see, I think in this group, everybody has kids, but they're all maybe 11 and under. Mhmm.
Justin:And that's kind of you as well. Right? You're a
Brian:11 and nine. My
Justin:my 11 and nine.
Brian:Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I do that every year. Go out to, like, big snow tiny comp. It's like 12 of us.
Brian:And, you know, I've been doing it for years. So I know these guys really well at this point. We do really, at least half of it is talking about life and family and kids and relationships. And the other half is all business. Yeah.
Brian:But like, you know, that that's always interesting, but still I haven't met most of their families. Yeah. Only only one guy we we've gone out on like a double date with our our wives. But like the yeah. It's like I it's like and that's always been fun because different age groups, some of them have kids more like your your kid's age.
Brian:Some of them one guy just had his first child four months ago. So Mhmm. Yeah. It's a it's a range, you know.
Justin:It's fun. That's kind of what I missed about MicroConf is that we used to there used to be a lot more spouses that would go to MicroConf and so you'd at least get a little bit more hangout time. My wife here on the left here, she's met Adam because we hung out we hung out at MicroConf. Getting to spend time with people and at least seeing their significant others is pretty There's something about it that I was just like, I want more of this. Yeah.
Justin:I'm actually seriously thinking about going to Caleb Porzio's doing his wire con in in Buffalo. And I thought, oh, it'd be go it would be fun to go hang out in Buffalo and just see where he lives, see his town. Because we're kind of all trying to figure out this business thing together. But what people see is such a small percentage. And obviously, I can't let the world see my my whole life.
Justin:Like that would be too much. But for the trusted people who I've built relationships with to hang out with their families, hang out in their town, I think yeah.
Brian:That's like one of the things I I sort of love about this industry, having like made a lot of close friendships with people because it's been an opportunity to to meet people from literally so many different locations around the world and different backgrounds. Yeah. And, you know, very different from how I grew up, you know, in in the New York area, meeting meeting you, like, from from Canada and people all over the world. You know, like so it's been fun and and interesting to, you know, build some real relationships with people who have very different backgrounds or political views or Yeah. Or like, you know, just everything.
Brian:But at the same time, it's like by by that nature, we live so far apart. So it's still mostly like an online relationship. Maybe once in a while, we get together in person.
Justin:But Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I yeah. It was very it was great to be with them. It just reminds me of how important it is to get together with people in real life.
Justin:Really interesting to hear about like Wes Bos and his business and what he's thinking. Yeah, just the catching up in real time. It's such high fidelity. It's it is
Brian:I don't know Wes Boss, but I would like to hear more about his
Justin:Oh, dude.
Brian:We should have him on the show. Just know him from afar, but like his business is very interesting to me right now with what I'm doing with building my business.
Justin:He kind of was one of the early people that was doing like online courses for in terms of for programming and and web development. And so, yeah, he's like basically because Sentry bought Syntax, his podcast. And so he's about twenty hours a week is dedicated now to Sentry and the Syntax podcast. Yeah. So he's kind of totally shifted.
Justin:But
Brian:yeah. So so can I lay out for you what I'm thinking with builder methods in terms of I I I've been going over this over the last couple of episodes on here, but I feel like I'm zeroing in on on exactly what I think it's gonna be at least to start? Let me hear it. So this is still just a starting point, and I and and it's just something to to get the get the money flowing in this business. Right?
Brian:Like, get get to a get to a point where I have some level of revenue coming in. It and then and then I can figure out what's what and build on that. Right? And so step number one is is is this very first workshop. And hopefully, it'll be like a something that I do regularly, maybe.
Justin:Can people just sign up for that? Is that public?
Brian:Yes. It's at well, the easiest way would be to just go to, like, buildingmethods.com/workshops, and then there's a I I should have prepared a direct link. We'll we'll put it in the show notes.
Justin:Okay. Cool. Yeah. I oh, yeah. I see it right
Brian:here. Yeah. So that is a live workshop. I I put a $50 price tag on it. There's an early bird special to get it for $25 right now.
Brian:Probably in the if I do this again, like, I'll charge a little bit more for it. But the whole idea with these workshops is, like, low ticket price come and and it's basically a way to, like, raise your hand. You've you've been in my audience meet of me talking about AI stuff. Yep. You are a little bit more serious than the casual viewer.
Brian:You're willing to take out your credit card and just hang hang out for, an hour or so. And and I'll prepare, like, a a slide deck, and I think that's gonna be about half of it. And the other half is gonna be like open discussion, ask questions, and let's talk about what what we all are really curious about right now.
Justin:I don't
Brian:know about all the answers, but I'm just gonna host this discussion. You know? Yeah. And so so that's the idea. And then I think off of that, I want to actually start the ball rolling on what I'm thinking of as Builder Methods Pro.
Brian:Okay.
Justin:So
Brian:I'll I'll introduce that to the attendees at that workshop, and that would they would be the very first people who have the opportunity to join as members. Haven't fully finalized the pricing yet, but I do I I am gonna be doing the model, which most of these new membership launches do, which is like the first 50 members are gonna get it at, like, the lowest price you're ever gonna see it. And then, like, the next 50 members, it'll be a little bit more. And then once you get above something like a 100 members, it's gonna it's gonna get to its, like, final destination for the price point. Yeah.
Justin:And what what is going to be in Builder Methods Pro? That's the membership?
Brian:It's gonna be a membership thing. Okay. So it's sort of like a little bit of a grab bag of benefits that you get. By the
Justin:way, I heard you and Jordan Gahl talking about this. This is one of the podcasts I listened to while I was in Dallas. I heard you talking about it and he was like pushing We
Brian:did our mid year update on Bootstrap Web. We're on the twice a year schedule now.
Justin:And it was interesting because he was kind of pushing you towards like higher ticket. Like he was like, man, if you customize this for my team, I would pay 10,000, 20,000 or whatever it was.
Brian:Yes. Now, I'm not ruling that out, and I and obviously, it makes sense. Jordan is always gonna go toward, what is the highest ticket price thing that you could possibly sell with this? And I and and he, as a team leader, sees value in it. Of of course, I see the same thing, and I get inquiries about the same thing.
Brian:But as a starting point, look, I'm I'm just not trying to book my calendar solid with direct consulting engagements. That's not the business I'm building here. Yeah. You know? I'm going to be like, yes, I'm going to be selling that at some point, but that's not the main dish.
Brian:Yeah. That's icing on the cake. Yeah. The main thing has to be this builder methods pro, and what you get in that is access to a community, some sort of chat thing. I probably not gonna go with Discord because I hate that.
Brian:I don't know.
Justin:What are gonna go with?
Brian:Not sure yet. May maybe Slack, maybe Campfire. I'm I'm not sure. Another key component to it, I think, is gonna be this is the official support channel for Agent OS. So if you are using Agent OS, which is free and open source for anyone, and you wanna ask a question and get a guaranteed response, you gotta be a paid member in Builder Methods Pro to do that.
Justin:I like that.
Brian:And then but I have more to more open questions about that, which we could get into with the open source thing.
Justin:Okay.
Brian:In terms of content. So again, I've been sort of going back and forth on like, do I do courses? Do I do mini courses? What does this look like? I'm now starting to think of it I should have seen this earlier.
Brian:There's other models for this much smaller, not even courses, just standalone lessons, five, ten minute videos. Yeah. It's basically the GoRails model. Like, he has built GoRails on just an endless feed of years in the making library of these ten minute bite sized guides.
Justin:Oh, I didn't realize that it's a lot shorter.
Brian:They're all a lot shorter. And you can just search his library for like all of those are little like jumping off points into these like ten minute guides. They're not even like like he he's he did start to build out these sort of courses. But like, generally speaking, it's like, you know, if if you wanna just learn about a very specific thing, chances are you can find a a ten minute video about that inside Go Rails, and he's gonna walk you through that in ten minutes. And and I see building something like that with Builder Methods Pro for, you know, topics related to building with AI.
Brian:Mhmm.
Justin:Like,
Brian:how to how to get like, if you're interested in using sub agents in Cloud Code, I'll have a ten minute video about that. If you're interested in using background agents with Cursor, I'll have a ten minute video about that. And I'll mix in some other things, maybe some like Tailwind lessons or some JavaScript or like little tricks and tools that that I think are are useful. But it doesn't have to be some big course curriculum. It's not gonna be something that you gotta spend a month watching.
Brian:It's not gonna take me months to create. I can just whip up these quick tutorials. And that's part of what you get access to. It'll just be an ongoing growing library of these things. Yeah.
Brian:I think that I think that that that works so well for this in a in a bunch of ways. Like, number one, they're quick and easy for me to create, so I can just keep creating them on a regular basis. Mhmm. They're so small that, you know, this space keeps changing. So I can even if the sub agents thing changes, I can just do another sub agents video three months later.
Brian:Like, it's not a big deal. And I think people just want shorter, quicker, just in time learning. They don't wanna sit through a whole thing. Mhmm. You know, so it's and I think that's another, like, benefit of joining the so it's like, you you might become a member because you want access to this growing library of content.
Brian:You might become a member because you want official support for Agent OS. You might become a member because you wanna just connect with other builders in a community. Maybe you want all of those things. It's it's the single thing that I'll be promoting through Builder Methods Pro is like or just Builder Methods in general. Like, once you become an email subscriber or once you join a workshop, you're gonna be promoted to to become a member.
Brian:Like, if you are a professional, if you're serious, you should get a pro membership. And then, you know, later down the road and this is like like, that's the the main thing that I wanna launch in September Mhmm. And and just see what early revenue for that looks like. And then I can figure out, like, okay, where do we go from here? I I I assume that I'll I'll layer on, you know, engagements with teams, enterprise team.
Brian:And, of course, teams can just buy seats for their whole team in build build Builder Methods Pro. That that's one option. Or they can like hire me to do like a private workshop for their team. Like, that would be another option. You know?
Brian:And then maybe lay out layer on sponsorships and stuff. But the but the main dish is just grow this Builder Methods Pro membership, and we'll see where we go from there.
Justin:You know? I like the idea of shorter content. I think that's I mean, the the whole struggle with this was AI moves so fast. It's gonna be hard to update things. Nice thing about bite size videos is it may might be more easy to update those.
Brian:Yeah. And it's like same thing in GoRails. I've been a member in there and like there there's like videos from like 2021 on some gem Mhmm. That it's half of it is like not accurate anymore. And then, you know, maybe a year or two later, he'll get around to, like, doing an updated version of that.
Brian:And and he does sometimes. But it's like Yeah. There's just always always something, you know.
Justin:You you know one thing I'm wondering about this might not be practical or for you or or whatever, but in terms of updating content video content faster, I've been thinking a lot about Descript. So, you know, I'm editing this video on in Descript here on the web. And then they have these web links. Right? So if I copy this over, this updates so fast when it comes to like, when I make a change here in the web app, this public link updates so fast.
Justin:You can embed these
Brian:Oh, that's cool.
Justin:Which is interesting. And then the other thing I found out is that there's actually these hidden there's hidden HLS playlist manifest URLs with these. So I'll just find it here quick. I I just figured this out the other day. I don't know if these stay static, but I think this could be cool for a course if they do.
Justin:Where is
Brian:like a section of the video you could just swap out?
Justin:This is one of these little it's called Downey. You can download things. But look, here's the link to the actual HLS stream. And then if you put put this in like one of these HLS video stream testers, it works. So you could theoretically have a GoRails style course or whatever and embed these Descript HLS playlists and still have updated content straight from your video editor, which I think is cool.
Justin:Like, if you if you needed to update stuff all the
Brian:is really cool. I mean, like, you can even take the next level and Descript has this. You can, like if you you've already recorded the video, you could just change the script. Oh, do you like
Justin:yeah. I use
Brian:some of those type in some update to the to the content. You know?
Justin:Yeah. Well and I think that's what's cool is that it's fairly easy to, yeah, copy stuff in or I mean, you could even there's their AI generated stuff is a little bit weird, but
Brian:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean so that like, I think that that is a starting point. I I do I still it's still very much an open question on on like, how much solid recurring revenue could actually be there.
Brian:I think it'll be a very, very slow burn to get to a really good place, like, call it, like, above 10 k a month even. Yep. Maybe I'm underestimating it, but like, it's gonna take a while to get there with and I haven't solidified the price point for this thing yet, but it's it's not gonna be super high because I don't think that this type of thing in this audience has like a high tolerance for but it's not a super low tolerance for price point. Like, there there are definitely people who will pay a very high and and I'll have like, I I am thinking about, like, offering, like, an upsell version where it's like you you do get a private coaching session with me, like, once a quarter or something like that. Like that that'll be priced higher and, you know, we'll see how many people go for that.
Brian:But my early evidence so far, either both looking at the market and also seeing a lot of people inquire about direct coaching with me, and I give them a price for that and very few bites on that. Okay. It's telling me like because I could see what what competitors in the in the space charge, and some of them even show how many members they have. Mhmm. So like, I could see like there's some market for the like coming off of YouTube, people do join these communities.
Brian:It's a question on like how long do they stay and how much are they willing to pay. Yeah. I do think that like over time, like if I if I can start to get a sense for like exactly how many new members can I attract every single month into Builder Methods Pro? Mhmm. And if it's if it's some, like, non zero number, then I can figure out, like, okay.
Brian:Now how how do I just throw a lot more traffic into the top of this funnel so I can keep growing that, like, new new member conversion rate every month? Yeah. But then then it's also a question of like, now how do we get more upsells into a coaching option or attract more teams to buy 20 seats at a time Mhmm. Or attract more teams to book me for a private workshop. Again, like again, like the main my main priority is like, longer term, it's like, how do I just build a great company that I can sink into for ten years?
Brian:But short term, it's like, I wanna eliminate everything else that I that I do and just do this. Yeah. Consulting, like, I do some clarity flow support. I would love to just hire someone for that and remove myself Mhmm. And just focus on builder methods, doing YouTube, doing lessons for the members, doing workshops for the members, and selling memberships.
Brian:Mhmm. Like, I could I could do that full time. That's the goal. You
Justin:know? Yeah.
Brian:And, like, build building tools all the time and and showing the work, like, that's what I wanna be doing.
Justin:Sorry. What what was the original when you you kicked off this discussion just now, you're saying I want to talk about were were you wanting to talk about the workshop in particular or the how to get people to upgrade to Builder Methods Pro? Or what what are some of your questions around that?
Brian:I've I've done this sort of, like, pitch and and launch motion before. I'm not new new to that. Yeah. The the bigger question that I am very new to right now is managing a free open source product in Agent OS that actually has some traction. I've never offered an an open source product before.
Brian:Like, if you look at my profile on GitHub, there's like one. It's Agent OS. And so let's see.
Justin:And what what's the volume look like for Agent OS right now? Like, how are is there kind of significant inbound issues and other things right now? Or what's the
Brian:So it's got like 1.3 k stars, which is not a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but, like, it's it's only, like Still. Two like, what, less than two months old?
Justin:Mhmm.
Brian:And as of right now, there's, like, 12 open issues that I haven't responded to. There's nine pull requests that I haven't even looked at. There's a bunch of discussions that I pretty rarely chime in on. And so my my question and and people are starting okay. So every single day I get emails coming through my contact form on on buildermethods.com asking support questions.
Brian:Like, they're just asking like, just like it's a support inbox. They're they're just asking, oh, I had this problem with installation. How does this work? And this and that. Right?
Brian:So I get those just cold emails all the time. I get Twitter DMs from people, same thing, support questions. I get a lot a lot of YouTube comments asking support questions. And then there's the GitHub. So Yeah.
Brian:This is a free open source product. I can't sustain just just manning the support inbox all the time and and offering real support to everyone for free. Like, that's just not gonna sustain. Mhmm. So I think the plan right now and maybe you can correct me or people can tell me, like, this is the wrong way to handle it.
Brian:But I think I'm going to start to set up the GitHub so that like, I still need to, like, set up the GitHub so that, like, if somebody tries to put in an an issue, they have a system for, like, okay, you can push them to a discussion or you can push them to, like if if this is a I don't know. Like like, there can be some response. Like, before they're even able to to post an actual issue, I'll promote to the official support channel is through Builder Methods Pro. You can buy a membership here.
Justin:Yeah. This is a trick.
Brian:And like so so basically, would think of it like the the issues will remain open. Like, I I do wanna receive issues if there's an actual bug in the software that that needs to be fixed. Right? And so that's what issues should be for. And then discussions are for things like that's like the community.
Brian:Like, I'm not gonna be I I don't have to chime in on on the discussions on on GitHub. Yeah. You know? People can just make their feature request. People can do their own q and a for free.
Brian:It's open. Just go ahead and do that. But but just know, like, you can't expect a response from from me over there. I'll probably I'll probably add, a pinned thing to the very top that says, like, the the official support channel is Builder Methods Pro. And you can even see at the top, like, somebody's asking.
Brian:This is not the first person who's been asking. They want a Discord server. I'm not just going to launch a free Discord server. There's no way I'm just going to manage a free community. Like, that's just not gonna happen.
Justin:I mean, that that is tricky, though. It's tricky because there's a balance here, I think.
Brian:Like, I I don't wanna rub people the wrong way. I don't want and I don't want, like, issues to pile up. That that look unresponded. So, like so I do need to start to do some housekeeping around, like and I I could probably set up some bots where it's like because people will still post issues for things that are not bugs. They're just like support questions.
Brian:And like that should just like convert it to a discussion or or automatically close it and say like, Builder Methods Pro is the place.
Justin:It does probably make sense to say, you know, if you want quicker responses, the official, channel is Builder Methods Pro. On the other hand, I think a lot of the people who have built these big open source projects for like the first while and maybe even still to this day, they are they just engaged a ton with the GitHub open source GitHub like Taylor Ottwell still, I think he opens up the project every day, the Laravel open source project, and answers PRs.
Brian:But there's also just like the reality of it. Like, just given my reality of where I sit here in my business.
Justin:Mhmm.
Brian:Like, there's a lot of people who run a very popular open source thing, but they are backed by a big company or they have a job Mhmm. Or or something. Mhmm. Right? Like, I am a bootstrapped business owner here.
Justin:Yeah.
Brian:Like, I I don't this is not backed by by a big company. So there's just the reality. Like, I just do not have the hours or the mental bandwidth to troubleshoot every free user's issue.
Justin:Yeah.
Brian:I feel like the balance there is, like, I have to offer really good and up to date documentation.
Justin:Mhmm.
Brian:Like, the answer to every question should be in the docs if you're just willing to find it yourself. Yeah. You know? Same thing with the Talend docs. Like, I don't think you can just email Adam's team and get an answer.
Justin:I well, they do the Peter Soom does support for Adam part time, I think.
Brian:Yeah. But they have pro memberships.
Justin:Yes. Yeah. That's a good question how they manage that. I don't I don't know.
Brian:And then, like, the other thing that happens a lot, this is I'm still wrapping my head around, like, how to handle this is, I get a lot of these pull requests. Most of them are things that like some of them are fixes that and and when it's a true fix, like something I screwed up and they just somebody was nice enough to fix it, I I merge it in. I've done that a few times. But a lot of these are just like, yeah, I built this other integration with this other CLI. You know?
Brian:It's like Yeah. First of all, I don't have the time to review it. Second of all, it's a tool that I don't use myself. So I can't maintain this as a new feature in the product forever going forward. I can't support it.
Brian:I can't write docs for it's so most of these PR I was I was talking to Adam about this. I was like, what do you do about all these people who just submit PRs Mhmm. For features that you're just not going to implement? And he's just like, yeah. Like, I think what he said was like, yeah, running an open source project is is is an exercise in, like, crushing people's dreams every single day.
Brian:Yeah. And just like, you know, saying like, sorry. Can't can't do it.
Justin:You I think this is the hard thing even here in chat. Junta is saying, how much are you willing to take contributions from the community? Because that's kind of like the the benefit of open source theoretically is
Brian:that And I do. Like, I've even already taken a lot of feedback and requests. A lot of that is being folded into Agent OS two point zero that I'm actively working on right now. Yeah. So it's really great.
Brian:Like that's where I've really valued the discussions tab. Yeah. Like people requesting a feature and then people upvoting it and people suggesting improvements. I've already implemented. I've already released some improvements to it based on seeing the feedback from people.
Brian:Yeah. But then there's a lot a lot more stuff that I'm just like, maybe? Maybe someday?
Justin:But I mean, I think this is kind of the thing is that it it seems like most successful open source projects, the most valuable contributions are actually not being made by just like these drive by open source contributors. I think that's the dream is like, oh, this is all this crowdsourced improvement like Wikipedia. But I think similar to Wikipedia, there ends up being a core team of people that are working on it. And I mean, Dave Junta is saying that too. Like, you need a core team.
Justin:I could see you partnering with a few core people who are just incredibly valuable and aligned with your vision and having them help you. But from what I've heard from other people, they're just like, there's just so many people contributing their pet project, their pet thing. And you're just like, sorry, it's not gonna happen.
Brian:Also, I think that there are different types of open source projects and the why behind why are they actually open source? There I think of what I'm doing with Agent OS much more similar to what Adam did with Tailwind, what Caleb did with LiveWire, in that, like, we have a very specific vision for what we want. Mhmm. Like like for me, like, know what I'm solving for with AgentOS. There's like a very core mission behind it, which is like make agents build the way that I would want it to be built and make them follow my process more reliably than just hoping for like a fifty fifty chance of that.
Brian:Like putting it's it's a process management tool is really what it is for for AI coding agents. So I'm constantly trying to improve those two metrics. Like, is it following instructions reliably? Mhmm. And is it building my way?
Brian:Yeah. And and so, like, Adam had his and and he still has his vision for Tailwind. Mhmm. And and also, these are, like, very new tools. Like, there there there was Bootstrap.
Brian:There was, like, other CSS frameworks. But, like, Adam's whole concept for Tailwind flipped everything on its head. Mhmm. And I and I feel like with mine, like, yeah, there's people doing somewhat similar things, but it's like I it's it's coming like organically out of, like, I'm just trying to solve this problem in whatever way that that I have a personal vision for. So what I'm saying is like, I'm just trying to build I think I didn't even expect it to be this popular in two months.
Justin:Yeah.
Brian:But then there's another type of open source project where it's really like they put it out to the community. The more people that can contribute to this thing, the better this product is gonna become. And I don't even know how they manage that, but like
Justin:I've I've never actually seen a successful open source project like that. I Yeah. Like, I I
Brian:You could maybe make the argument that like things like WordPress or even like But WordPress
Justin:is a core team.
Brian:That They all establish a core team at some point.
Justin:Yeah. I mean, Rails is the same way. And I think this goes back to our enthusiasm conversation, which is what ends up being a magnet and what ends up being attractive about these projects is that there is an enthusiastic either leader or an enthusiastic leader plus core team who are opinionated about where it's going, who are actually building real stuff with this. Like, they're not just Yeah. People at home going, oh, theoretically, this would be interesting.
Justin:No. No. No. Like, when Adam's working on Tailwind, he's like, how do I want to style and design websites? That's Exactly.
Justin:What we're doing. We're not your pet project of whatever you want to do. Fine. Go do your own thing. This is what we're doing.
Justin:And DHH, like, people want him to add all sorts of stuff to Rails.
Brian:Yeah. Like, if it's not going in Basecamp, it's probably not going in Rails.
Justin:You You know, where do most of the new Rails things come out of? It comes out of, like, what Basecamp wants, what Shopify wants. It's like real projects. And and to have that kind of opinionated, enthusiastic, and and a leader, I think, who has a vision is so important. I I I don't think you can do it any other way.
Brian:I I think that's exactly how I'm approaching it. Like, I I started building this newsletter lab tool using AgentOS one point o, and I ran into a bunch of things that like, I'm using it as designed, but it still doesn't achieve that that perfect balance of like, is it building it how I would build it? Is it following my instructions every time? So that led me into two point o. Like, I have a a new rethink on how Agent OS should be architected.
Brian:Right? So I do have this vision and it's out of my own needs. Like, I wanna be able to build tools with it. Mhmm. But it it is it's like striking that balance between, like, building building toward my vision and embracing and welcoming this community around it.
Brian:Mhmm. Like, what's more important? Is it, like, making this product as great and aligned with my personal vision as possible that I need to dump all of my energy in that? Or is it or is it like spread like, I don't even think I'm at the point where I care about it spreading in terms of usage. Because if I if I really cared about, like, lots and lots of people adopting this in a widespread way
Justin:Yeah.
Brian:Then I feel like offering great support and evangelism and and all of that is more important. But, like, I'm not in that phase of development yet. Right? Like, right now, it's like, how do I fund my time for this? And the answer is gonna be Builder Methods Pro.
Brian:And how do I make this an actually useful tool? Mhmm. You know? Like, because I think it's actually getting to the point now, especially with what's coming in in two point o, where it's a it's becoming like a really powerful tool. I feel like it's the type of product that I would normally want to charge for as an actual software product.
Brian:But I think the nature of it being in this AI space, that's why I made it open source or free. Yeah. It's because, like, the the space is changing so much. Like, two point o is embracing things in the in the coding tools that are here right now, but they might not be here six months from now. So I can't have my paid software product have the rug pulled out from under it when when Claude code changes or when codec changes or something like that.
Brian:So I don't know, like, what the future is gonna hold. And that's why I think that, like, a tool like this should be open source. I also I also really like that it's I think a lot why a lot of people resonate with it is that it is unbiased. Mhmm. It's biased towards my vision of what what it should be.
Brian:But I don't come from Anthropic. I don't come from OpenAI. I don't come from Google. So, like, when I had calls with with people, like team leaders who who are using it, and I think it's it's also why people resonate with my content. Mhmm.
Brian:Is that like, I'm not trying to push my tool that I want you to pay for.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. It's agnostic.
Brian:Yeah. It's agnostic. Like, Cloud Code is great, but Cloud Code also kinda sucks sometimes. And Codex is great, but they have some shortcomings over here. And like, I'm being real about what those are and I'm building Agent OS to be like the best thing for whatever.
Justin:Yeah. I think it's interesting in the chat, there's lots of questions about this tension between is this an open communal project? Or is this an opinionated leader driven project? And I think one thing I'll say is I've just never seen a truly community run project that didn't have a strong leader and a core team. Like, I it when it's just like, hey, let's all contribute to this thing.
Justin:It'll be great. We're even Wikipedia doesn't run that way. Like, I think, like, the vast majority of Wikipedia edits are done by this tiny percentage of super editors.
Brian:I think it's really a matter and this goes for paid products too, but definitely with open source. What you're saying, I think is like, it does start with a person's vision. They're scratching their own itch.
Justin:Yeah.
Brian:Right? This is exactly what I'm doing. And if how I'm approaching it resonates with you Mhmm. And if you like how I solved it, then come on in. Let's Yeah.
Brian:Let's go. Yeah. And, you know, like, it think about all the people, and I'm one of them. Probably everyone else was so slow to adopt Tailwind CSS because it is so different. It flips CSS on its head.
Brian:Yeah. It's it's anti all the best practices that we learned for decades before that.
Justin:Mhmm.
Brian:But a couple months later, a year later, I'm like, you know what? It is better. It's so much and and then I'm like, oh, it's so much better. You know? I'm I'm I'm not trying to compare what I'm doing to to what Adam did with Tailwind, but it's like it's like eventually people just came around to Adam's opinion.
Brian:Mhmm. You know?
Justin:And I think the other important piece is that it is still open for people to make meaningful contributions to the project. But I think think sometimes people feel like because it's open source, they have a right to suggest or contribute whatever they want. And it's like, no, no, no, no. It's like, this was my vision. This was my thing.
Justin:I'm giving it away for free for you to use it. You can make suggestions for it. And if you're aligned with me, come on board, like prove yourself, get in the weeds, fix some stuff, help me close some PRs. And yeah, maybe you can eventually get to the point where you're a part of the core team and you're helping make some of these higher end decisions. Yeah.
Justin:But the idea that you're going to let any sort of random person drive by with their opinion and their it's like, no, no, no. I created this. And the reason you're all here is because it's achieved some level of distribution. And I think that's the piece is that people see something getting traction. And then they're like, oh, Tailwind's getting traction.
Justin:But I want it to work more like Bootstrap.
Brian:Exactly. No. Well, then go and use Bootstrap. Then you're not a Tailwind person.
Justin:We're not doing that here. And of course, there is a tension here. I think the hard thing about open source is you still do need to engage in a respectful way.
Brian:That's what you know, that's the thing that I want to be really clear about. I've been so pleasantly surprised at what it's like to hear from users of an open source product. Again, I have really no experience in being the creator behind it. Mhmm. But, like, almost every single comment, every single email, every single message I get starts with, like, thanks so much for for creating this.
Brian:It's it's been really positive. Know, I really appreciate you doing this. I do have one question or I do have one issue that, like,
Justin:you know.
Brian:But it's all good natured. And there've been zero complaints about like my lack of response time on the GitHub discussions or anything like that. And it's all like in my head, like, because I'm used to like when a Clarity Flow support message comes in and these are paying customers of Clarity Flow, we make sure that every single question gets an answer. Like nobody's going to go unanswered because they're paying customers. And it does bug me that I have active users of my tool Mhmm.
Justin:Who
Brian:I just cannot sustain answering every single message. The volume it's not overwhelming, but if I gave every single message the kind of time that they really deserve to get a good solid answer back
Justin:Mhmm.
Brian:That's just not sustainable.
Justin:It does feel like there's like a book here or a course for people like you that are running these open source projects and, like, how to do it. Like, I I'm I did a quick search and there's different blog posts and stuff. I think
Brian:Adam did something about wait. Let me see if he gave me a link. But Adam did point me to something in their policy on the Tailwind.
Justin:Yeah. I think I think having kind of expectations is is super helpful. Like and and being clear about them. And then if people are like getting upset in the discussions or whatever, you just say, here's the policy. And even building it and even referencing, like, we've based this on what others open source projects are doing.
Brian:Yeah. Adam said, like and and he he pointed to a bunch of other projects that do the same thing. It's just like, please note, we don't offer or we don't often accept pull requests for new features, period. You know? Adding a new feature to Tailwind requires us to think through the entire problem ourselves and make sure that we agree with the proposed API, which means the feature needs to be high on our own priority list for us to be able to give it the attention that it needs.
Brian:And and I mean, I would even add to that that, like, even if I kinda sorta agree that it would be a good feature to add, I also need to agree that it's worth me committing to maintaining that feature for the lifetime of the product and for documenting it and for supporting it for for people. Like, that's a that's a big that those questions go whenever I'm deciding on a feature to build in any of my products. Like, it's not only about, like, do I think it's a good feature? It's all it's also, like, long term, can we actually commit to supporting this feature?
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is interesting. I think folks at home, if you've got ideas on how if you've seen you know, you've been a part of your own project and you've seen how it's worked well, it'd be cool to hear about that.
Justin:But it does feel like this this could almost be its own, like, meetup, you know, like open source project owners anonymous.
Brian:Or you
Justin:just Yeah.
Brian:It's like I I feel like I am in a little bit of a unique space with it, and and then we can hop hop over to you. But, like, the the main question on my mind is that, like, I feel like the super popular big open source projects are already backed by an established business. Mhmm. Or they come from a huge company who who's just paying developers to maintain some bit, like, you know
Justin:I mean, they didn't start like that, though. Like, Laravel was not backed by a big company when it started out, and LiveWire
Brian:was No. When he was employed at the time. Right?
Justin:He was employed. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian:Yeah. And I think Caleb was employed when he started LiveWire. Right? I think?
Justin:That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian:Like, things like that. So so so then I wonder is, like, I'm not employed. I'm and I'm in startup mode on a bootstrapped business
Justin:Mhmm.
Brian:Which has an open source thing. So, like, what what is the playbook in that situation?
Justin:Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like, how can you harness some of this excitement and and manage your own personal margins so that you don't get burnt out? Yeah, dude.
Justin:That's that'll be interesting to watch. I mean, it's awesome. But sometimes you can have too much good opportunities all at once.
Brian:Yeah. I know we're running a little long, but I don't know if you wanted to cover that that thing.
Justin:Yeah. I mean, let's quickly just talk about we'll end on this. Effort, outcome, asymmetry. I'm just fascinated by this. I I I've brought it up so many times.
Justin:I also had this blue sky post that I think is just interesting to me and maybe not interesting to other people. But I came up with a scenario like, you spent a $100,000 on ads in 2025. Kinda feels like a Derek Sivers thing. Sales jumped by 50%. What a great campaign, you said.
Justin:But then you took a time machine back and spent $0 on ads. But surprise, sales still increased by 50%. Not every input drives the outcome. And this came up again when I was hanging out with Adam Latham and all them. You know, sometimes you push an object, you apply force to an object, and it just moves with, whatever force you're applying.
Justin:But sometimes you push an object and it goes way further. Right? The same force applied has way more leverage, way bigger outcome. And that asymmetry is so interesting to me. And I'm thinking about this all the time.
Justin:I'm thinking about with my kids, the difference between the the mean starting salaries of a counseling degree versus a business degree versus a comp sci degree versus a comp sci degree with an AI major. You know, like, those are It's all the same, relatively the same amount of input. Right? It's four years of your time. But the the the leverage you get from some of those activities is much greater on the other side.
Justin:And I've started to try to think about how I can think about this. I think it is possible to to have this in mind when we're starting new projects or evaluating existing projects. And I just started thinking, you know, for a new project, like, how much is this bet going to cost me? What is the foreseeable outcome from this bet? How likely is this to happen?
Justin:And maybe a lot of this came out of that conversation I had with Jason Cohen as well. You know, his framework for, like Yeah.
Brian:I heard some of that when you were talking about it. Yeah. Like, I I think that I think it's a great concept. It resonates with me because I thought about the same thing. But I think what you're trying to do here on the on the second half of this is like like knowing that this is the like, we all know it's it's sort of like the age old, like, eighty twenty principle.
Brian:Right? Yep. And and knowing that that exists, that, like, sometimes we'll like, if we put the same investment in, one might 10 x the outcome of the other. Mhmm. How do how can we use that to our advantage or how can we make sure we're we're getting that 10 x more often out of the time?
Brian:But on the other side of that coin, in my opinion, from a creative standpoint, it just reminds me of of the fact that, like, I've been coming back to this idea for so many years in my life. The best ideas just flow out of you super fast. They just come out fast no matter Like and so, like, I the first time I started recognizing this, like, I've been writing songs on on the guitar for so many years Yeah. Since I was a kid. I still do it today.
Brian:And I I've had I've had songs that I just labor over. Like, I I kinda like this riff, but it's not coming together, and I and I'll just just slam my head on it for, like, weeks. And and you know what comes out of that? A pretty mediocre song. Mhmm.
Brian:And then other times, I'm just, like, noodling around and something something comes out. And then in like five minutes later, it's like one of my favorite songs ever came came out. And I've heard I've heard other musicians talk about the same thing. Yeah. The same thing has happened with products.
Brian:I I think that AgentOS is one of those things. It's something that I hacked together the the first version in, two days, and it sort of resonated. And other things like that have have happened, like, where it's like, you you know, it's like a an a thought in a shower turns into a whole company. Mhmm. You know?
Brian:Yeah. And it's like Those serendipitous kind of Part of it is like, you wanna optimize it. You wanna try to increase your batting average. But part of me is just like, you can't. Yeah.
Brian:Sometimes the best things are just gonna come fast, and other times you think you might be on something.
Justin:But I think you can increase your batting average because there it's clear that we know people, and I think you and I are these people, there are some people that are just more likely to hit on something than others. And I think what differentiates those people is they are kind of consistently putting things out into the world. Yeah. And I also think as you've done that, you start to get an intuitive sense for when there's something magical happening. Now, you still might You know, Adam, like we started this whole podcast off with Adam coming on and going, man, I tried six things and they all failed, and I feel like an absolute failure.
Justin:And I think you and I were looking at him going, yeah, but that's just part of being
Brian:the kinds of But you got to tell him.
Justin:Yeah. And also just being the kind of people that do eventually hit some gold. Because to be that To put yourself in the place where you could do that, you have to increase your lux surface area. And how do you do that? And there are some people that are just consistently losers.
Brian:All right. We've the clip. We're going to clip that.
Justin:We're going to
Brian:broadcast it out.
Justin:But but I think I think it's important to say this because the because I I think everybody has the potential theoretically to be a winner. There is something about building an intuitive sense.
Brian:This is becoming like a like a motivational seminar or something.
Justin:I think there is something about having an intuitive sense of it's like you can keep chasing after things that just most people who have shipped a lot of things will go. This is why advice from Jason Cohen is so helpful. He's had so many experiences. He's advised so many people. And he can look Now, there's some things him and I disagreed about.
Justin:You know, he was pushing back on some things that I don't I think differently about. But the fact that he was able to, like, pinpoint how I was feeling, the circumstance I'm in, all that stuff, it's because he's had enough experience and gained enough intuition that he's able to kind of instantly get a sense of the room and go, I think I know what's going on. And I think that creative eventually can figure out, oh, here's an I've got an intuitive sense of which way to go here. Even decisions like your decision of I'm going start publishing on YouTube. Right?
Justin:You could have focused on being like, you know what? No. I'm going to be ideologically, I'm going to be an AT protocol person. I'm just going to publish all my stuff on Blue Sky because ideologically, that's really important to me. And I think that's sometimes what causes people to fail is this rigidness and not having being able to kind of feel what's happening here, what's rising, what opportunities are out there?
Brian:I wanted to pick up on that, the opportunity cost. You touched on this in your original piece. Yeah. Because this is what gets me, and this has been a tension that I've been dealing with, I feel like, my whole career. And it's something that I see I see things differently than than some other people do.
Brian:And that is this idea of, like, I like yes. I put a lot of things out there. Not as many as I want to, by the way. Like, I look at a guy like like Josh Pigford, and I'm continuously jealous at his pace of of not only the ability to create and ship, and sometimes I think he he he overdoes it.
Justin:I think he overdoes it personally. I I love Josh, but but
Brian:he is that, like, true creator of, like, just put throwing stuff out there and when something sticks.
Justin:I think that's an example of a of an approach that doesn't work, honestly. It's like Maybe. Is that it's like this undirected it's like, no, no, no, no. Like, just pause for a second and think about opportunity costs.
Brian:But that's what I'm saying is that I think there's also the flip side to that. Yeah. Because a lot of people will say, like, if you have an inkling of success, like a few customers for a thing Mhmm. Like, should you go all in on that for a year or more?
Justin:No. Because there's still not enough information. You you the I think this is this is kind of the skill set you can build up, which makes me think that you can learn some of this. Which is once you've done this enough, you realize a couple customers is actually not enough to Yeah. To justify going all in on something.
Brian:But there there is a school of thought out there, and and I constantly want to push back on this Yeah. Which is like when when people from afar will armchair quarterback your your business and say, like, you you had something there.
Justin:Yeah.
Brian:If only you you doubled or tripled down on it, you could have gotten it to a place instead you followed a shiny object. What my pushback on that would be, like, I've seen when an idea hits traction fast.
Justin:Yes.
Brian:And this or that idea did not come fast. It was a slow grind to get to where it was. So if you triple that grind, it's not going to get to where it needs to be.
Justin:Yeah. I agree that it's sometimes it often you know, the the things that take off do just happen quickly. On the other hand, like Nathan Barry with Kit, that was more of a slow grind, and he still decided to commit on it, commit to it. But I think it kind of followed a similar reasoning, which was he was looking at the course business. And he was like, all the people I know that are in this business, this is what their businesses look like once they've scaled to this level.
Justin:And he was like, that's not going to get me personally where I want to go. He felt like there was an opportunity in email. It did take longer than he thought it would. But he still had
Brian:this
Justin:intuition that it was worth pursuing. And sometimes, you just have a gut feel of Taylor Outwell, even. He didn't make money off Laravel for years. But he just had this feeling like, I think this is worth pursuing. I think the hard I thing
Brian:do think that the pitfall that people, maybe more newer entrepreneurs might run into here is that they love their they fall in love with their one idea. Mhmm. And and it's like they just keep hacking on that one idea. And Yeah. Even before having any customers.
Brian:But but even if you have a few, like yeah, it's like a and and like an unwillingness to pivot or to even consider other ideas or to let yourself get excited about other ideas because it's like you don't wanna admit failure on this first idea. Mhmm. You know, I I think I think people who've been around for a long time, especially the more creative, like ship a lot of businesses or products type people, start to get comfortable with the idea that, like, I can be really excited about something for three months, for six months. And if I'm not still excited about it and and look, like, if it's making a lot of money, I'm gonna keep being excited about it. Yeah.
Brian:These things do go hand in hand. It's not like I stop being excited about things that are making a lot of money.
Justin:Yes.
Brian:You know? Like, usually, like, one one influences the other. Yeah. But but at the same time, I'm I'm also the reason why I'm I'm continuously like a like a bootstrapper and not a I I feel like taking a lot of investment commits you to one idea. Like, you're obligated to follow that idea for a longer period of time Mhmm.
Brian:See it through. You you miss out on that optionality. You miss out on on on the
Justin:And I also don't think you get if if there's a tuning fork that gets better with age as you have experiences, a venture backed startup, I think kind of it precludes you from getting that intuitive sense or building up that intuitive sense of I think in the beginning isn't.
Brian:You can have that vision and that conviction, and then you go out and raise a bunch of money off of off of that conviction. And and if you have the the skill sets and if you're at least partially right on that conviction, then then that can be a great thing to do with with your career. But I but I it takes a lot of personal commitment to say, like, I've got this inkling of an idea. I'm willing to invest five years of my career on this thing.
Justin:Yes.
Brian:You know? I one of
Justin:the foundational experiences for me was in my early 20s, starting this snowboard, skateboard retail shop, and experiencing how much work that was, all of it. How much effort went in, and how much effort and resources went into that shop? You know, tens of thousands of dollars. So many hours. And then, after that failed, going and working for a software company, and seeing the difference in way less effort applied, but way bigger outcome.
Justin:Yeah. And it was just so stark. And having done other things too, like having done, you know, freelancing, building WordPress websites, and being like hour in, you get paid. And then, like, there's just some things where your input, your initial effort produces way bigger results. And as soon as the foundational piece is just having that realization that, you know what, I'm working way less.
Justin:It was way less work to start transistor. It was still a lot of work. Way less work than starting a Yeah. Retail And once you have that, it's like, why would I take this bet where it's two thousand hours of time, dollars 300,000 in inventory, and your chance of success and your possible outcome in terms of what you can earn for your family and everything is so low. So you're betting all of this time and money for something that's just marginally better.
Justin:And even that, you'd have to be in the top 10% to get it. I think that's what I'm really eager for people to think about is all you have to do is just start thinking through these scenarios like, oh, you want to start a restaurant? Maybe that's the right answer for you. But still think about like, effort, time. What else could I do with my effort, time, and resources?
Justin:And would there be a possibly better avenue for those resources that might give me a better result?
Brian:Yeah. And I I think there's also like a through line that that connects back to, like, you know, the Jason Fried DHH philosophy, which is not for everyone, but but the the thing that always resonates with me is that, like, that transfer of enthusiasm. Mhmm. Like, it's a they have this this mindset of like a business or a product is only worth doing if if they are fired up about it personally. Yeah.
Brian:Like if they wanna use it, if it scratches their own itch. Because if there's a lot of people who and a lot of successful business people who can just look at any market out there. Just pick any market that gets that where there is a market, and they can just, like, an analyze like, an an analytical opportunistic approach to say, like, there's a market there. People buy those products. That is validation that I should go build that product.
Brian:I don't care if I have a personal connection to it. Mhmm. I don't care if it's scratching my own itch. I don't care if I'm one of those people. There's something there, so I'm just gonna build that.
Brian:Yeah. And people can be successful with that. I'm just not one of those people. Like, for for me, like, in order to to be to find any level of success in marketing or or funnel or action or or that enthusiasm, like, it has to be something that that I create out of, like, scratching my own itch. And I think that, like, there there's that's there's like this this balancing act for for people, I I think, like like us that like are are always like balancing this like entrepreneurship thing and and this like creative fire thing.
Brian:And you see that in like in in Basecamp and you see that in in some some like, you know, it's it's a it's a balance between, like, it's not just about, like, follow your passion or do something, like, because there can be a lot of failure in that too, business wise. Mhmm. It's it's finding that balance between, like, I'm fired up about this thing, and I put out this this lightning rod that, like, other people sort of resonate with it. Now now let's go.
Justin:Yes. And I will say, evaluating and thinking about the possible best outcomes. And maybe there's no better example of this than David and Jason from thirty seven Signals sharing their book royalties that they've earned so far. So I
Brian:don't think I heard that.
Justin:Dude, this was this came up in our conversation in Toronto. And they released I'll I'll try to find it. It's like if I can remember, total book royalties for their books, which have been incredibly popular, Rework especially. Something like $2,000,000. So here's here are, you know, two people
Brian:I forgot. Was rework self published or did they go through a publisher?
Justin:Through a publisher. Okay. Here's two people at the top of their game in this category, book publishing. Like, they Sure. There's other people higher than them, Mark Manson and other folks.
Justin:But in terms of having an audience and then being able to sell a book and it being on the bestsellers list, that's them.
Brian:Yeah. That's the first time I'm hearing that number. And I feel like that doesn't really surprise me.
Justin:It doesn't surprise me. But I think what's instructive about it is when you're choosing where to dedicate your time and energy, for them, their books are just a nice to have. That's just a that's just an offshoot. But if you are a creative person who said, you know what? I am going to I have a choice.
Justin:I can either build Basecamp or I can be a full time author. And they're both equally interesting. And you're equally passionate about them. That there is this an evaluation about what is the most likely outcome here. And again, maybe if $2,000,000 in total sales for whatever they've over ten years is fine for you, then go after that dream.
Justin:But the idea that you can apply the same effort in two very distinct categories, but one has just way bigger outcomes is something that should be on our minds all the time. There's always an adjacent possible. The trap, I think, is that you could you could dedicate your life to something and and and not be considering like, well, there's other things I can apply these same skills and passions to that might produce better results.
Brian:I I'm always trying to stay in tune with when when I feel like something is a grind or when I'm forcing it.
Justin:Yes.
Brian:And and that can come in in different forms. One, it it could come in, like, I'm just putting a lot of sweat hours into this thing and I'm not seeing a lot of return or I'm not confident that there will be a return. Yep. So that could feel like a grind. Or and I like, I've had times where I'm like, alright.
Brian:I have a little bit of cash to play with or I have some some investment or something. Like, let's let's see what happens if I can throw $1,020,000 dollars at this campaign. Like, let's see what kind of success I can buy with this money. Yeah. And and and like, it doesn't pay off.
Brian:Like, that then it's like, these are signals that it's that it's like, alright. This this just feels forced, You know? That's why I always like the idea of, like, starting with something successful came out fast. There's that early signal that just that's the lightning. Now let's throw the fuel on the fire.
Brian:Let's now let's double triple down on that. Let's put the dollars behind it. Even even like right now with Agent OS, the first version came fast. And I think it's pretty good, but I've already found holes with it. But if nobody was using it and it was bringing no traffic into my funnel for my for my new business here, there's no way I would be pouring all the hours that I'm pouring into two point o on it.
Brian:You know? Yeah. But but I'm fired up by the traction that I'm seeing with it. So here I am building two point o. You know?
Justin:So if I'm reading this right, because they have cumulative and current. So here's the statement from October 1 to March 31. But they have cumulative earnings here. And the total cumulative earnings for Rework, 577,000 copies sold is $2,000,000. That's wild.
Brian:Yeah. And that's just rework. They've got a few other books. Yeah. But yeah.
Brian:That's definitely the bigger one. The the it doesn't really surprise not that I know what the what the range of royalties would be for business books like this. The thing that doesn't surprise me about it is that, like, I know, like, in our circles, it's one of the all time greats. So we think of it as this, like, big success story, and it is to to a certain extent. But I also think that, like, our circles are very small in the grand in in the bigger category of business.
Brian:Mhmm. Right? So I don't know, like, what the biggest business books ever, but, like, it's this is is rework even in the it's not close to, the top 10, like, all time business books.
Justin:It's probably in the top I bet I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the top 25 or the top 50.
Brian:Maybe. But I think it's still a little bit niche. It doesn't seem like you wouldn't think that about like from where we sit. But if walk into Barnes and Noble, you're not going to see rework kind of a on a big display in
Justin:I think rework was their big their big breakout success. But, you know, the
Brian:other thing about books in general for them is that they're selling byproducts. Rework wouldn't happen unless they were already doing some other business.
Justin:Yes. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian:Have the ideas for it.
Justin:Yeah. The the I mean, I I have seen rework at my local bookstore in Vernon, BC. I've seen it at the airport. It would it was getting significant distribution at the time. My guess is 577,000 copies puts it in the top 5%, I'm guessing, of
Brian:Is that all time? 500?
Justin:I think that's because this says
Brian:That number seems low.
Justin:Cumulative. Know? That's-
Brian:But I think we also forget how small our space is.
Justin:But again, this was their breakout success. This was the one that reached the broader societal zeitgeist.
Brian:Like, that's also a signal that, like, again, like, if you're doing a product that's going to sell that's targeting, like, SaaS founders, that's a very small mark. People don't realize how small that market is. Or even bootstrapped business owners. It's a growing thing. It's been around for years, but in the general business category, and that includes funded startups.
Brian:That includes executives at large corporations. That includes people in middle management. A lot of those people are just not going to be attracted to the concepts of rework.
Justin:Yeah. So less than 2% of books sell more than 50,000 copies. So at 577,000 copies, rework would definitely be in the top 1% of business books by sales volume. I think what's instructive about it is, again, we have a choice of where we are going to put our energy and our time and our resources. And if you are if you're sitting down with me and you're saying, hey, I want you to give me some advice.
Justin:I could just pursue writing the best business book I can, and I want that to be my full time thing. Or I could go and build a software company, and I've got a really good idea for it. I'm really excited about it. Between those two bets, outside of other factors, but if you were just looking for the the economic potential, which does matter to a lot of people, You choose the software You should choose the software company all the time. But what I always see creative people do is they're not making that calculus.
Justin:We are friends with a lot of people, yourself included, who are musicians, who love audio, who could be you know, you're musically inclined. And a lot of you took music in college. And, you know, there's a reason that so many of you ended up getting into web development.
Brian:I remember the reason. Dude, I got a degree in audio production. I thought I was going work in recording studios for my career. And then you know what happened? I got an internship at a couple of different recording studios that paid me $0 to work forty hours a week.
Brian:And then I went to an internship at a web design agency in New York, which did pay their interns. That was was the first signal that, like, maybe I should pivot to to this worldwide web thing that's paying their interns. You know?
Justin:There's lots of reasons to pursue something you love. And, you know, if you have if you've inherited a bunch of money, you should go do that. I think if you're in your early twenties, you should definitely go get your music degree and try a bunch of things. But if you are a person who wants to build a business, the asymmetry between effort and outcomes is something you should be thinking about. And to be thinking like the whole idea of business is that there is going to be an asymmetry here.
Justin:Because if you invest a dollar and you only get a dollar back, you haven't made any money. You want to invest a dollar and make $5.10, a $100 back for every dollar you put in and every ounce of effort you put in. You're looking for asymmetric bets. And so to be thinking about this and that and as soon as you're in that realm, then it's just like, well, how asymmetric could I get? You know?
Justin:Like, maybe I could pursue this idea and it asymmetrically, it might have a better outcome for me.
Brian:Yeah. We can we can go all day about this and go go in circles about it. I I feel like another like, because you could you could also get into that analysis paralysis thing where it's just like, alright. I don't I don't believe in this bet. I don't believe in this bet.
Brian:I don't believe in this bet. And then you just don't take any bets.
Justin:You gotta you gotta be in motion for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Well, I think that was a good one.
Justin:We went two hours with and there's been people here in the live chat that have been with us the whole time.
Brian:I'm seeing movement over there. I can't I I usually don't
Justin:Daniel have time Colburn just just joined at last minute here. There's all sorts of great you know, there's folks who've been here from the very beginning. Thanks to everyone who joined us in the chat. And yeah, folks, if you have other comments, leave them on YouTube. Leave them on blue sky.
Justin:We have an email address. I would like to request the AI bots that they stop emailing us with have you been getting these emails too? Where they're emailing us about the show, but it's like an AI bot that's scraped our show. I have. Yes.
Justin:And so the first two paragraphs are like, oh, wow. This is so listening to the show. This is so great. And then it's just some freaking bullshit. They're just trying to sell us.
Brian:I got one, I think, today or yesterday because I I recently did that Bootstrap web episode with Jordan. I got an email. First paragraph was like, it's great to hear you and Jordan catch up again after being off for so long. I was like, oh, this must be a long time Bootstrap web listener. And then I read three more paragraphs and I'm like, oh, they scraped that off of our description.
Brian:Got it.
Justin:Alright, folks. We'll see you next week, I think. I think we'll be back here on Thursday.
Brian:Later, folks.