Surviving on the internet
#22

Surviving on the internet

Justin:

Let's just make this the show. Let's just go. You guys in chat? You guys ready for us to just go? Let's just go.

Justin:

That was I mean, Chris might even include that in the episode. We can we can do whatever we want. This is this is our thing.

Brian:

I like it. Let's go.

Justin:

Just as a precursor on this v zero thing is I I I showed this to you, but I'll I'll just show everybody. I I think this is the coolest. I just think this is the coolest thing. In terms of prototyping, v zero is a game changer. So we've we've been wanting to redo the create episode UI for a long time.

Justin:

And so this is what that page looks like right now. It's quite long. There's a lot of fields. We want to simplify it. And we also want to set up things for the future, being able to automatically recommend titles and show notes if people have the AI transcription add on enabled.

Justin:

And so we talk, we talk, we talk. All we do is talk. And then, you know, v zero has now allowed me to, like, say, I'm just going to I'm just going to build a prototype of this right now. This is what blows my mind is I gave it a prompt, which is, help me to reimagine this page for simplicity, better flow, and better UX. So this is

Brian:

So you screenshotted your current one?

Justin:

Screenshotted my current one. I also gave them HTML. And then this is the crazy part. Let's actually move audio file upload above episode title. Which, by the way, that alone just being able to see that and go, that's definitely where it should be is a big game changer.

Justin:

And before, I would like be editing the the DOM and, you know, messing around with this and moving it around and whatever.

Brian:

But Yeah. It's so like, that's the thing is like these product ideas or UI ideas, you could say them, you could think about them. Yeah. But you don't know if it's correct until you see it on the page. And if and and, like, in the in the earlier days, it was, alright.

Brian:

Now I gotta rework this HTML, this layout, just to see the idea.

Justin:

Yes.

Brian:

You know?

Justin:

Here's what blows my mind, though. I add this. I like to add a functionality where the audio file is uploaded, and it's automatically transcribed in the background. Based on that transcription, suggest an episode title and show notes for the episode. The fact that this worked the first time and in a way that instantly is kind of like the paradigm I wanted to use is freaking crazy.

Justin:

So you

Brian:

select it. A sentence. Like two sentences you gave it.

Justin:

Select an m p three. So first of all, the uploader works. Upload complete. Just a really nice UI. Generating episode suggestions.

Justin:

This is wild that it just did this. And watch AI suggestions. There's a few things that need to be edited here. It's like, whatever. But use these suggestions.

Justin:

Done. So this one incredibly important feature that we've been talking about and thinking about how we might implement it, to have a working prototype that, of course, we would have to figure this out on our own end. Like, this isn't in our infrastructure, scaled or tested or anything else. But the fact that I could build this and show it to people and say, look at this interaction, look at how it looks and feels and works. Look at the organization of the page.

Justin:

This is crazy.

Brian:

I think what's interesting about about user interface design with AI and and LLMs is that this is where one of the you know you know how like LLMs are trained on the most commonly seen patterns

Justin:

in the

Brian:

in the world. Right? That's really beneficial when it comes to UI. Like like really good UI is is sort of leveraging what users expect to see, like commonly Mhmm. You know, commonly seen, commonly known interfaces that that just feel obvious to a first time user.

Brian:

Yep. And and that's why, like, two sentences two sentences of just describing basically what you want and not giving it, you know, crazy detail, the LLM is just like, got it. You probably want something like this, which is a very common pattern, you know? And that's like that that means, like, you're gonna end up with a good interface because that's what you you know, that's quality user experience.

Justin:

Exactly. Yeah. And now in v zero, I just just I I've, like, done no exploration in v zero, but I just realized you can create your own design system like, define your own design system there for it to follow, and then you can select that thing. And so I'm gonna just customize it so it uses Transistor's existing UI paradigms. And, you know, now all of the prototypes I create will look and feel like Transistor even.

Brian:

Yeah. I love

Justin:

it. I'm yeah.

Brian:

I'm How do your how does your team feel about your this new workflow for you?

Justin:

That's a good if they're watching, they should tell me in chat.

Brian:

I was also kind of curious about your team. So obviously, there's John. Who else would be involved in this, like redesigning the episode screen.

Justin:

It'll be primarily, I think, this project. I mean, everybody contributed. When we were on our retreat, everybody contributed to feedback and, like, notes and even doing some mock ups and stuff. But I think the primary group would be myself and John and Jason to like and John would be primarily responsible. Like when it was

Brian:

John is like full stack sort of like everything CTO.

Justin:

That that's right.

Brian:

Yeah. But I'm not really familiar with Jason. Is he more front end or back end?

Justin:

More back end. Yep. And then Josh sort

Brian:

of like more like the front end design person?

Justin:

I mean, in the sense that in the old days, when it was just John and I, I would mock things up using just HTML and CSS, and then I would throw those over to John. And then he would or John I I would just communicate the idea or the vision, and then John would just build it.

Brian:

John would take it. Yeah.

Justin:

So there's always been sometimes I'll do more. Sometimes I'll do less.

Brian:

Cool.

Justin:

But that's generally how it how it's worked so far. Yeah.

Brian:

Very nice. Tight ship.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. It's the the thing that has me thinking about AI, I want to recommend a podcast, Cheeky Pint, with John Collison, the cofounder of Oh. Stripe.

Brian:

Cheeky Pint. Is that a YouTube thing? I think I saw him doing a YouTube thing.

Justin:

It's also an audio podcast. It's it's it's very good. This Des Trainer episode, I think, should be required listening for everybody in products.

Brian:

Interesting.

Justin:

I just listened to Toby's episode, the founder of Shopify.

Brian:

So what's the are they talking business? Are they talking products?

Justin:

Business and products. And what is what's good about it is John Collison has the ability to ask them basically about anything, and they respond. So like, offhand, he asks Des Trainer what because now Intercom has pivoted to being an AI focused company. And offhand, John says, well, how much revenue are you doing now in this new paradigm? And Des Trainer tells him.

Brian:

You know, that that's I gotta tune into this. I I did see clips of it pop up on my YouTube feed, but it's so I've always been like so many of us, I've been such a long time fan of great interviews and great interviewers. You know? Like one of my first I I think Andrew Warner is one of the all time greats in our industry. And even outside of that, like, I've always been a fan of like, I don't know, like like Howard Stern and and Lex Friedman and and like just really great interviewers.

Brian:

Right?

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

But one one aspect of what makes a great interviewer or interviewer interview show like, another big favorite is is Mark Marron with with WTF, which is ending, I think, this month. Mhmm. One of the things that makes a great interview and a great interview show is the credibility or the or the position of the interviewer. Right? Yeah.

Brian:

You know, like you it like, I might know how to ask the the best questions in the world, but if but if I don't have this rapport or this standing with the person that I'm interviewing the way that Collison does with his guests.

Justin:

It it's huge. And and and what comes out of it like, even this segment here. So John asks Des, what are your other pet peeves when it comes to product marketing? Actually, you want another pint? That's funny because they they drink a pint while they're doing it.

Justin:

And what comes out is just this raw, unfiltered authority on a topic. Like, these guys are not bullshitting. They're not giving corporate speak. It's just like, this is the way it is. Let's talk about that.

Justin:

And further down, he goes, what kind of person succeeds in product at Intercom? And by the way, you can like I'll I'll paste this into our show notes here right at this point in the transcript. I don't know if you guys know this, but there's deep links to these things here.

Brian:

This is like this is really one of those one of one of the magic things about podcasting in general. And and again, it's it's this interview format, but it's it's not like just anyone can do it. It's like you can really catch lightning in a bottle when you get usually two, like, just really credible high level people just talking like it's just the two of them talking, but it happens to be recorded. I mean, like, another one that I've that a favorite of mine right now on YouTube is LeBron James and Steve Nash.

Justin:

Oh,

Brian:

yeah. You know, they've been doing and and before Steve Nash, it was JJ Reddick. He took the the Lakers coaching job. So Steve Nash took his place. We're talking about, like, two all time great NBA players Mhmm.

Brian:

Interviewing each other. And they're talking, like, the most technical basketball conversation. Like, I'm a lifelong basketball fan. I can't understand half of what they're talking about. Like, they go deep, you know, but it's just, like, fascinating.

Justin:

Yeah. This looks I love stuff like this, especially when it's done, Like so much branded content or honestly, podcasts by CEOs are absolutely terrible because they're too safe. They're so boring. I want to hear raw, unfiltered, but authoritative, like folks that know what they're talking about, and they are allowed to just speak freely. Yep.

Justin:

That is the best. That's what made that's what made Steve Jobs such a compelling figure is that even compared to to Bill Gates, Bill Gates was always a little bit more careful. And Mhmm. You could just tell, like, Steve if Steve Jobs was annoyed, you could he would you could tell why

Brian:

he was annoyed. Excited to tell you about why he's annoyed. Yeah. You know?

Justin:

And there's something about that that's so great.

Brian:

I mean, just, like, one more example. Like, I'm a huge fan of of the Smartlist podcast just like so many other people in the world. Like, why does this show actually work? It's because it's it's three Hollywood people, just the three of them, their their chemistry is fantastic on air. And then they have a fourth, and we're talking about, like, Hollywood people, musicians, comedians, but they're just talking shop.

Brian:

And we never get to see we only get to see them in the TV shows and movies that they're in. We never or if they're, like, promoting their show, obviously, that's fake, and they're just doing junkets and stuff. Yeah. But when they're just talking on the Smartlist podcast, they're bullshitting. They're having fun.

Brian:

They're talking about the business. It's fantastic. You know?

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, man. But to transition, now that Sora two is out, none

Brian:

of us are gonna be doing

Justin:

any of this anymore.

Brian:

I think this is fascinating. I don't know. Have you joined it? Have you been on it?

Justin:

I just I just took your, your invite code you gave me, and I joined. I've I've what's

Brian:

funny I am as a as a nineties gangster rapper. Right there.

Justin:

This is awesome. Hold on. I gotta watch this.

Brian:

Oh, yeah.

Justin:

This is so great.

Brian:

Okay. So that's me hell like jumping out of a helicopter, snowboarding down some some mountain. But by the way, I I sent that video to my to my three friends who I go out to to Whistler with. Yeah. I was like, hey, guys.

Brian:

I've been practicing on the off season. Get ready.

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

Think that this Sora app is fascinating on so many levels. Like, it's I I really honestly think it's one of these things that we're all gonna look at and be like, this is silly. This is this is gonna come and go. But I think we're gonna my prediction, we're gonna look back on this, and it's gonna be like the next TikTok, bigger than the than the next TikTok. Like Yeah.

Brian:

Massive. I just think that okay. So I got an invite from a friend, Charles. And so I started making some videos. Obviously, the the the tech, the AI model for video generation is better than it's ever been.

Brian:

It's really, really accurate. But what is fascinating to me is how interesting and engaging it is each individual person who is using it. So I also sent an invite to my wife, Amy, and and and she's been making videos. And and then we're able to tag each other and create videos of, the two of us in these, like, random situations. Right?

Brian:

Mhmm. Because you can, like, you can have they call it a cameo and you you can, like, allow certain people to put you in their videos with permission and stuff. And and, like, she's not even a a big social media person. Right?

Justin:

Like Yeah.

Brian:

Barely uses it. But this, it's like, we have fun with it together. It's a it's a it's a it's a hilarious thing to see these Mhmm. Weird videos that we and and it's just interesting to see how how engaged each individual person is to see themselves create a video.

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

Right? This I literally, I I think that the big the big unlock that this app is gonna have, I think, on the on the world, on social media, is is that it does turn everyone into a creator. Whereas before, it was only 1% can actually create and the 99% sort of just flip TikTok and and and consume. Yeah. Now it's everyone creates.

Brian:

And it's not just like yeah. Everyone like, the big headline you see everywhere is like, this is AI slop. And it is. Right? Like, it's it's nonsense.

Brian:

But the the key is that every person can put themselves in a video. Everyone wants to see themselves in these ridiculous situations. Like, made one put me as a nineties gangster rapper. You know? Like, it's just I and that's hilarious.

Justin:

You know?

Brian:

And I'm gonna sit there for three minutes waiting for the thing to generate because I can't wait to see how stupid this looks.

Justin:

You know?

Brian:

I I just I just think and, like, the amount of engagement and then the social aspect of it. Right? Like like, sent like, me sending a video to my friends and laughing about it together Yeah. Is fascinating. Like, it's there there's a thing happening here.

Justin:

The basketball one right here.

Brian:

That's that's me dunking and banging my head on the rim as as a New York Knick in Madison Square Garden.

Justin:

I've got three questions slash observations. Observation number one is people are already gaming that homepage. Like, there's one repeatedly of Sam Altman going something like double clicking on this Right. On this thing does nothing, which people then double click on it. I'm guessing it hearts that thing, and then that video becomes popular in the algorithm.

Justin:

Yeah. So I I found actually the home page like, my first experience as a user, the home page kind of sucked. It was just like Yes. A bunch of the same kind of stuff not compelling

Brian:

at all. Another really interesting aspect to this.

Justin:

Yes.

Brian:

Because so I'm reading this Burj article about about Sora two yesterday. And I think what OpenAI set out to do was to try to create another TikTok with that home screen and the social the social feed and parting and and all that. But I think what they're quickly learning, and I'm absolutely seeing this in my own usage patterns, is nobody even wants to touch the home screen. They only care about generating videos as drafts that are private and just sharing them directly with friends. Right?

Brian:

So so like, I think on my personal feed, if you go to my profile, I think I've I've only published like two or three videos.

Justin:

Yeah. There's only three. Yeah.

Brian:

But I have made like 10. You know?

Justin:

Got it.

Brian:

And like seven of them, I I only share with my brother or my friend or Amy. You know?

Justin:

Here's my second question. Is it feels like in the past, the usage patterns of this has followed a very sharp curve up and then down. So it's like the anime thing. You know, everyone was making those anime videos for a while, putting themselves in studio is it Ghibli? Ghibli?

Justin:

Ghibli?

Brian:

Oh, yeah. Right.

Justin:

You know, everyone was doing that. Studio Ghibli anime videos and comics, and then it dies down. I I mean, there's other things too. Like, for a while, everyone was making AI headshots of themselves. Right.

Justin:

It feels like the usage pattern is always, oh, look at this. And then the market gets saturated with it. And then people go, okay. Like, no.

Brian:

I think that could I think you could be I think that could be true. Although this seems different and more compelling. Like the Ghibli thing, but it was just never interesting to me. So I didn't I never even did it myself. Right?

Brian:

Yeah. This is still sort of silly and dumb. Like, I'm not gonna create a new YouTube channel off of my Sora videos or anything like that. Mhmm. And I'm not necessarily trying to create a following on Sora, but the engagement.

Brian:

It's like, I'm just fascinated with like how engaged me and my friends that I show these videos to are. Like, the social aspect of this, I think it's gonna be a new I'm really bullish on this because I think it's gonna be a new form of social media. Like, I think that they set out to try to create TikTok. Mhmm. But I but I think they're stumbling on something else.

Brian:

This is not gonna be TikTok. This is gonna be I I sort of like the idea of, like, smaller self contained social net like, it's a way to have fun with your actual friends and family with these videos. Yeah. Because I think that most people are not gonna the the thing with Sam Altman is that, like, he made himself available for anyone to cameo him into these videos. Mhmm.

Brian:

I think probably 99% of people are not gonna make themselves available to just anyone. Yeah. Right?

Justin:

I have seen some of these South Park ones too. Those ones those ones are actually interesting because it's very difficult for me to distinguish between

Brian:

a The real one.

Justin:

Of yeah. From Sora and a South Park a real South Park clip.

Brian:

And and that's how they're gonna try to monetize this. Right? Like, they they're already trying to because they they basically try to prevent you from creating any content that could use a real brand or a real, like, celebrity person, like the you know? Mhmm. I've tried several times to do, like, me in a Seinfeld episode, and that's like a trademark that they can't do it.

Brian:

Yeah. They are trying to make these deals with brands and and IP owners Yeah. To, like, allow them allow people to make whatever, like a Mickey Mouse thing, but they can have more control over like, alright. Always allow Mickey Mouse to be used in these situations, but not those. You know?

Justin:

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Two more things.

Justin:

What the last one, which I think will bring us into another thing you wanted to discuss, which was our kids and technology and entrepreneurship and other things. I as an aside to this, I do think and someone's probably working on this, but I I'll call it here in case no one has. I think someone's gonna come up with some sort of overlay QR code, probably not QR code, but something that is able to distinguish like Ah, authentic human. And you'll put the overlay like down in your video on the lower right. And it will be a way of distinguishing like, this is for real.

Justin:

Like, this was actually filmed and this is authentic human. Yeah. And I think people will start to look for whatever this badge is. It'll be like, you know, Creative Commons has that logo. It'll be something like that authentic human.

Justin:

Because I think the backlash to this

Brian:

That would be great if somebody can develop that. Sora puts the watermark on it, there's already plenty of tools that can just strip it out.

Justin:

That's right. And something that is like a way of cryptographically or something saying, yes, like, we know that this video is authentic somehow. That would that's a difficult technical problem. But actually, I'd be interested in chat if anyone's heard of anyone working on this. But

Brian:

you know, what's actually kind of funny speaking of kids, my so my 11 year old, she has this thing now where, like, she always says that, like, oh, yeah, that video I saw, that that was AI generated. Or that that thing I see on YouTube, yeah, that was AI. She sort of like says that about everything. And I'm like, how do you know that that's AI? Because it looks pretty real to me.

Brian:

You know? And like, I like, I think half the time she's probably right. And and half the time she's sort of just assuming that most things are AI, which is interesting. You know?

Justin:

Mean, now, honestly, that's it's kind of ruins a lot of the Internet for me. Because I'll be scrolling on Reddit, and I'll see a video clip, and I'll be like, is this Yeah. Is this real?

Brian:

I know.

Justin:

And I

Brian:

That's how I think of it too.

Justin:

That constant feeling of, is this real? Like, I don't know. I don't know if this is real anymore. There is a disappointment that I think people feel, and we see it in our kids, which is, know, they'll be like, oh, that's just whatever. And it's like, man, that

Brian:

Or I wonder if there's gonna be something I don't know what it would be, but some something that people figure out can absolutely prove that they are real, like, at the time of filming. Right? So, like, there used to be the thing of, like, to prove that this happened today, I'll I'll hold up a newspaper of today's homepage of the of the New York Times, right, to, like, prove that, like, this photo was taken, on 10/09/2025 because I have today's newspaper. Think there may be in the future, there will be something that we figure out, like, if you do this or if you show this, there's no possible way that, like, AI can generate that. Like Mhmm.

Brian:

You know, if you see a footage of of, like, a president speaking on television, like, there's definitely gonna be a come a time, like, in the very near future where, like, almost nobody can trust whether that's really the president or not.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Jeez.

Brian:

You know, like, that that I think that's the big the big fear for me at least is is

Justin:

I mean, already.

Brian:

Already. Already. But, like, it's gonna be like that that's the that's the thing that can really spark some dangerous stuff.

Justin:

It's like That is

Brian:

world leaders.

Justin:

In terms of fatigue, that's like just even trying to get some news on it used to be like if you want to look at up like protests in Illinois right now, It used to be that you would see the news story, and you'd be like, okay, that's what's happening. But then you would go to Twitter, and then you would get a feed of like real citizens on the ground recording shit that was going on. Or a Periscope, live Periscope, and they're recording live. Now, like, we have no idea what's actually happening. Like I know.

Justin:

Like, in some ways, it's gonna make me rely on kind of more it's not entirely a bad thing, but more high level generic mass media. Because it's like, who can I trust? Yeah. In this case, I can't trust the person uploading a clip to Reddit anymore.

Brian:

And that's been my stance on most news as well is like I tend to lean toward the biggest, most trustworthy, most unbiased institutions. And of course, those are those keep degrading and degrading. Like I talked about last time, like, I like, I can't really even read New York Times anymore. I used to trust them the most. Now now I'll go to like, I don't know, whatever, like AP or like

Justin:

Mhmm.

Brian:

I don't know. Like but like, that's also the thing with social media, especially with like news and current events and like scary world events. Right? Like if I look at Twitter or, you know, or Blue Sky, frankly, like both of these places, you're gonna see a lot of clips and Mhmm. Complaining and and anger and activism.

Brian:

Yeah. And, of course, a lot of this stuff is real. There's a lot of there's a lot of bad shit happening in the world. Yeah. But I but whenever I look at these feeds, I I can't look at it and be like, well, I'm seeing all these posts.

Brian:

It must be rampant. It must be everywhere. Or it's just a few people who are angry on Twitter, and they're amplifying it in a way that's, like, actually distorting what's the the real reality of what's actually happening out there. You know?

Justin:

I mean, imagine, like, the the the pivotal moment for Twitter was Arab Spring. Right? Like, remember that you got all those photos of like, here's what's happening and people were Periscoping the live stuff. That moment is gone. Like that

Brian:

Right.

Justin:

Kind of like grassroots, like, wake up world. Like, here's what's really happening on the ground. That like, that brief window where you as a citizen, you could be like, holy shit. Like, yeah, the BBC reported on this, but it becomes so much real and visceral once you can see these real people there. Yeah.

Justin:

Done. Another thought I just had while Zach was commenting here about that whole thing, you're gonna need a passphrase so your family knows it's actually you and not an AI call. I think the other backlash that might happen from this is actually less influencers. Because now there's all of this video out there of me. I am infinitely trainable on

Brian:

Right.

Justin:

On it. You are too. Our voices are trainable. Fuck. Like, there's part of me that's thinking people are gonna be like, I'm not doing that shit.

Justin:

Like, I'm gonna Yep. I'm gonna clamp it down more. I'm gonna take everything off. I'm not I like, all my videos off the Internet because I don't want my likeness to be out there and be like, someone could upload something tomorrow. And I what would I then I have to go on and going, hey, authentic authentic Justin here, you know, like Hello.

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

Mean, absolutely. You know, I think that's real. You know? I like, I've I've heard people say, like, the like, we we've seen the final batch of, like, a list celebrities, human celebrities.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Brian:

There's there's not gonna be a next generation of them. Right?

Justin:

Mhmm.

Brian:

Then because they're just gonna be replaced with, like, AI personalities that we see in you know?

Justin:

Yeah. I I don't know how

Brian:

I I don't know how much I totally buy that, but there's gonna be a mix of

Justin:

Well, I like, personally, I can see the attraction because, know, Emmett was saying, you know, we'll all have pen names. Yeah. Not just pen names, but we'll all have multiple AI avatars. Like, here's who I am on YouTube. It's just a you know, I could be anyone.

Justin:

I could be a mech warrior that talks about politics. That's way safer in so many ways than having my real likeness.

Brian:

There is I mean, even right now, just in this I'm sure this is gonna evolve in all sorts of scary ways. But right now, like, you know, I could look at the official Justin Jackson YouTube channel, and I know that you personally are only gonna post things that you wanna post. So when there's like the Justin Jackson two YouTube channel, it's like obviously fake. Right? Like we see that, get tricked by that all the time on on YouTube.

Brian:

It's like, I think I'm pulling up an ESPN clip or something, and it's like and it's it's not actually the official channel. Right? So I guess like Yeah. I guess at least that's that's one layer of authenticity is like, you know if it's coming from the official verified channel or whatever.

Justin:

Yeah. I think there there will also be demand for in addition to this, like, kind of verified human overlay, there's gonna be so much more demand for, like, just the verified profiles and having even a central maybe blockchain version of my verified thing where I can say these are the verified places I speak. And anything that's not signed cryptographically with this is not me. And and putting massive pressure on the platforms to remove I mean, like I like someone could start a OnlyFans with my likeness. Right?

Justin:

It can blow up. I'm not saying anyone should do this, but that that's gonna be a problem. Like, all of a sudden, you're gonna have, you know, Justin Jackson feet pics on and it's like that that it's already like I am

Brian:

And it's also gonna become, like, so rampant that, like, whatever. Like, people can sue like, it it it'll it'll be so so far beyond the reach of just basic basic lawsuits. Like right now, you'll see things like celebrities like suing OpenAI for creating voices that sound remotely close to someone's voice. But eventually there's gonna be so many companies that have the capability to generate any voice or any likeness, you can't just sue everyone in the world. Like, it'll it'll be beyond the reach.

Brian:

Right? Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, we figured it out with the blockchain. So I

Justin:

I think I mean

Brian:

Fixed it.

Justin:

Juntha's like, you gotta stop saying these things to the Internet and tempting fate. I'm I'm saying this shit so that smart people like Juntha and everyone else in chat solve the problem. Listen. John and I solved podcast hosting. Can you guys just go and solve out all these existential threats to

Brian:

Yeah. We just gave you the whole road map right here.

Justin:

Just Yeah. Go ahead. One final thing that I think will get us into our chat about kids, because I stressed out about this too. So I've said that I have my son is taking art fundamentals right now, hoping to get into animation. My next youngest

Brian:

My daughter's into that too.

Justin:

My next youngest son is also really into animation and making movies and everything. And it is scary. So I'm I'm on this framer email newsletter, and he's like, just tested a new storyboard collage trick on Sora two. I'm blown away by the results. You click through on where do I do this?

Justin:

I think it's on Twitter. Yep. So the what was interesting to me about this is he's demoing this. These animations look pretty good. This example of this how this storyboarding thing actually works and what kinds of products can get created from it, pretty impressive.

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

I mean, that's that's like a show my kids watch.

Justin:

It looks and he's got multiple examples of this. Right? Like, different examples of different scenes that are being created and being able to keep the same characters consistent throughout, being able to reuse characters in I think what he's doing here is he's showing these initial shots kind of set it up, and then that's how you get the consistency with these close-up shots and everything like that. I'm interested to hear what you think. But I'm a little bit further ahead than you because my kids are older.

Justin:

Mhmm. The thing that's resonating in my brain is the recent college grads I talked to who went through Comp Sci say, I wish ChadGBT hadn't been around so that I could have learned to do things the hard way. Because now I'm lazy. I haven't been able to create those pathways. I just overly depend on ChatGBT.

Justin:

I don't really have a fundamental understanding of how it works, because I haven't spent the time typing it and doing it. Mhmm. And I worry about that. And it's interesting to see my kids like my son who's in art fundamentals right now, he's working his ass off. Like, it is the hardest, most disciplined like, you have to spend his instructors basically say, you have to spend three hours of extra time a day on top of your classes just doing deliberate practice.

Justin:

Going to like live model drawings. Like, it is thousands and thousands of hours to even become relatively good at drawing. And that is still true. So a part of me is like advising my kids, you do need to do things the hard way. And it's almost more important now.

Justin:

Like, you need to shut off all this shit for a while and just focus on the deliberate practice. On the other hand, I also want to tell them, like, I didn't send this to my son, but I also want to be like, dude, we also have to be thinking about this. This is real. This is for sure by the time you graduate, animation studios are gonna be using this.

Brian:

Yeah. They're using it now. I think that every creative industry this is this is not even new to the AI era. This was new twenty years ago.

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

If you like, I think that every educational institution, when it comes to creative industries and training creative professionals, the educational in institutions are always behind the eight ball of what's happening in the industry. We've we've seen that for decades in tech. Mhmm. Right? You cannot go to I don't know I don't know what they're teaching in in schools today.

Brian:

But when I was in college years, like, what, twenty five years ago? Twenty years ago? Mhmm. So like, I think at that time, like CSS was probably the new thing coming around, like Zeldman and like breaking away from table based layouts. That's sort of what was happening right when I was entering the web design industry.

Brian:

College universities were nowhere near that. They were using maybe using Dreamweaver. Like, they were five years behind that. Right? I think that I think the same could be said about audio production, audio engineering.

Brian:

The same could be said about video production, animation, art. So they're always behind like, technically, they're always behind what's happening in the professional creative industry. That's number one. Number two, I don't I don't really know that many people who have gone to, like, art school and and get art degrees. Mhmm.

Brian:

And thanks to the art degree, they became well paid professional artists.

Justin:

Yes.

Brian:

Artists and creative and and even just creative professionals like people in our industry and and, like, you get really good because you freaking love it, and you and you put in all those all those ten thousand hours because you can't help but not.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian:

You you work eighty hours a week because it doesn't feel like work to you.

Justin:

I think the messaging is still important. And I'm I'm actually having you know what is interesting is I've reversed on this because that that whole idea of like, man, education's so far behind, and they're teaching all this old shit that doesn't matter anymore. Now I'm almost like, actually, if I was a university, I would be saying, hey, everybody, we teach you how to do things the old way. Like, let's let's teach people how to do old style letterpress and old style. Why?

Brian:

Because I would want to if if I were to, like, pay for for education for knowing what I know now in the industry, I think creative institutions, like educational institutions, should focus a little bit less on trying to train you on the current tech in in their creative industry.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Brian:

And they should focus more on, like you said, history. Like how to like yeah. Like, try to like, fill in fill in the history of how we came to CSS or how we came to the style of animation. And just, give me, like, a crash course on, like, understanding where we came from so that I so that I know where I am today. That's number one.

Brian:

And number two, just teach the business. Like, teach some basic business skills. Like, what has always pissed me off is is how, you know, these these really expensive fine arts degrees are are doing nothing to help kids understand how to actually make a living in life. You know?

Justin:

Yeah. I I agree with those two. But the third one that I actually think is the most important right now is school is the one place where you can force kids to do deliberate practice. Like, maybe they even need to be saying, you know what? Screw these lectures.

Justin:

They can get that later. I've got you for a two hour block. I'm going to force all of you to sit down and write an essay while I watch. Or I'm going to force all of you kids to sit down and just practice drawing squares for a couple hours because deliberate practice is the hardest thing to do in life.

Brian:

I see. I think I have a different view on on that point, and that is if you need to be forced to practice, you're not gonna make it.

Justin:

That's but that's the here's the thing. In the old days when you had mentors or you were an apprentice, you might have had a passion for woodworking or a passion for cabinet making or whatever else. I even look at my kids. They got lots of passion. But the the role of a good coach or even my my son is in football now.

Justin:

This is a good example. So my son wants to play football. He wants to he's got the energy and the passion. He's just like, yeah, get me in there. But you need to refine that energy through deliberate practice.

Justin:

The only person that can make him practice deliberately the way that he needs to be, because he doesn't even know how to practice, is his coach. His coach goes, we are gonna run these drills over and over and over again. Well, coach, I don't want to. I just want to like run and, you know, tackle people. No.

Justin:

No. We're gonna run drills. Run drills. Because I can I'm in a position where I can basically make you guys practice in this way.

Brian:

Okay. So but I I actually don't see that as the role of the of a great coach. Of course, a basketball coach is gonna have you run drills and stuff. But, like Mhmm. A great basketball coach or any coach is not gonna make their team great because they force them to run a lot of drills.

Brian:

It's gonna it's because they gave them the right strategy. Right? And so I think that because the the best players, they love running drills because they just excel at it. They it's it's so easy for them. It's so the the the best players in in any creative pursuit or any athletic or

Justin:

or

Brian:

or business or anything, they just do it because they have to. It's it's part of them. The the the hard part for young people and and old people too is like, need mentors. You need you need strategists. You you need to be sort of course corrected or Yeah.

Brian:

A part of help you figure out, like, what's a waste of time and and what should I be focusing

Justin:

mentorship is just here's another example. I took English AP in grade ten, eleven, 12. And grade eleven, twelve, I had the same teacher. And she literally got us to write probably 100 essays both years. We come into class.

Justin:

She's like, okay, I reviewed your essays. Here's what you guys need to work on. Write another one right now. We wrote so many essays over and over and over again. And I hated it.

Justin:

I absolutely hated it. Once I got out, get into college, get into my first college class. I could run circles around other people when it came to writing. Yeah. Even to this day, if you say, like, if you compare, honestly, me to even my kids sometimes, I'm like, just sit down and write the freaking essay.

Justin:

They're like, I can't. There's so much like I could do that in my sleep. Why? Because I was forced to do deliberate practice. Do I love writing?

Justin:

Absolutely.

Brian:

I think but but I think part of that is, yes, someone was telling you to it, but you also did it. You didn't like, just because someone was telling you to doesn't mean that you

Justin:

had actually out of English AP if I didn't. Like, there is something I agree. There's you know, Wayne Gretzky just put in lots of extra hours of practice because he loved it. And that could be true as well.

Brian:

Because they're they're driven by something else. Like, they're

Justin:

But it's not you know, it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes, you just have somebody who's way more advanced than you, who's a guru, a mentor, a coach, a teacher, who's looking at you and all your raw naive energy and going, I know that you just want I know you think you're a good writer right now. But actually, the strategy you need is I'm gonna make you write an essay. And the strategy you're gonna make I'm gonna I mean, this also happened with me with public speaking.

Brian:

There's definitely a value to what you're talking about. But I just think that, like, at the end of the day, the best people who get ahead find their path to getting ahead. Right? And, like, the the other thing the the other angle that you can look at is is, like, drills and practicing the way that it's always done. Mhmm.

Brian:

It it might it might help you build some muscle, might help you build Yeah. Some stamina some stamina, but it's not gonna help you build your voice or your style

Justin:

It comes later.

Brian:

Your differentiator. You know? That

Justin:

comes later, though. Like, that's like again, not there are cases where people some people, individuals just have the drive to do all of this on their own. But I think what's more likely is the let's take public speaking, for example. I love public speaking today. I think I'm pretty good at it, actually.

Justin:

The way I got there is I grew up in church. And to give a talk in church, you have to practice. So you work with a mentor, and they make you practice that talk over and over and over again. And I had the mentorship of someone, I always said, this talk's ready. And they said, Okay, do it for me.

Justin:

And I do it. And they're like, it's not ready, man. Like, here's some notes. Go back and then come back and we'll practice again. Practice, practice, practice, practice.

Justin:

Then once I was in my 30s, and I started getting opportunities to give tech talks, then that's when my passion can build on all of that deliberate practice. But if it was just up to me, as a teenager or a 20 to do put in the actual work and build that muscle, I don't think I would have done it in the same way. Sometimes you just trip into it, and you're so passionate about it that you just do it on your own. But I've seen how good coaching and mentorship can take somebody, especially when they're young, and push them to practice way beyond what they would normally do. And there's something helpful about that.

Brian:

I I think I sort of agree with you like that. I I definitely see the role of a great coach, but I also just think that, like, in general, like like, what's the famous thing from from Seinfeld? Like, was he was brought into some college or or high school class

Justin:

on either

Brian:

public speaking or acting or and a bunch of it was like a class or it might've been like how to become a comedian type of class. And they brought him in to speak and like, what's the secret to becoming a comedian? And he was just like, I'm sorry. You're If sitting in this class, you're not gonna become a comedian.

Justin:

Because Yes.

Brian:

Because because professional comedians don't go to a class to become a comedian.

Justin:

Yeah. I mean, there's counterfactuals to that. Like, are there are if you listen to Mark Maron long enough, there's comedians who took comedy classes. And they're like, I know I'm not supposed to admit this, but I took a bunch of comedy classes. Yeah.

Justin:

And, know

Brian:

I think that it's like coaching can happen. Classes can happen. You can go to school for the thing and you end up being successful. But ultimately, ultimately to me, like the people who actually end up being successful, even if they went to a class or two, or even if they had the coach, at the end of the day, it was themselves that figured out how to excel, how to jump past the rest of the pack. The only way you do that is by creating a lot of stuff on your own and driving yourself.

Justin:

Yeah. I I'm just saying, I think behind those stories, even Wayne Gretzky. Wayne Gretzky had a father that was really pushing him. And so on one hand, it's like, wow, Wayne Gretzky just Well, that's

Brian:

what I mean. It's like they there's some deeper driver for especially for for athletes. There's a lot of like prove like, I'm driven to prove myself or, you know, prove the doubters. Right? Like

Justin:

Yes. But but also a a dad that's waking up and waking you up and making sure you get to practice. You know, like, there's the the idea is that I don't think there's a pure form of this self bootstrapped passion that leads to the discipline all on its own. If it does, that is so incredibly rare. I even

Brian:

though I I agree. I mean, of course, I see it with my kids. Like, I I wanna I definitely it it is definitely like, when you're growing up and, like, you do need to have coaches, parents, like, get teach discipline and teach, you know Yeah. The value of putting in hard work, of of course. But I I just ultimately think at at some point, I think part of it is like buying into the coaching, buying into the hard work.

Brian:

Right? Like, know, because you can be drilled again and again and again, But it's like the first if you're gonna do if somebody's gonna have you run a 100 drills of whatever, the first 50 are gonna just feel like a slock no matter who you are. Mhmm. And the second 50, the the real players come out. Yep.

Brian:

Because because half the pack is gonna is just gonna be like, this is so terrible. I have to quit. And and then the real players are just gonna keep going with the drills and keep and and and sort of want to be coached even more. You know what I mean?

Justin:

And that that part is like that as a parent, I think that's actually the hardest part is is the other part that I'm struggling with as a parent is, like, if you I I'm oldest of four kids. And I would say the two older of us, we both were way more kind of entrepreneurial and, you know, whatever. And then the younger two are still very self actualized people, but less entrepreneurial, less on that side. And I I think there is part of, you know, as I want good things for my kids. I'm also trying to be careful that I'm not saying like you have to be this magical entrepreneurial success.

Justin:

Because Yeah. Obviously, this is even of a thousand good people that start that are passionate about entrepreneurship and are quite skilled and etc. Out of a thousand, maybe, I don't know, a 100 might build a business that actually is significant. And then even a smaller percentage would build something that's big. It's just like your odds are better than the NBA, but it's still and this is the other thing that is worrisome about AI is like, our world needs jobs.

Justin:

Our world needs just like regular jobs that people can go in and if they're good, strong, skilled, self actualized people who just don't want to be entrepreneurs, there needs to be something for those people to do.

Brian:

Yeah. I think it's and it's hard for me to to know obviously, your kids are older than mine. So mine are nine and 11, and yours are in high school and college. So I don't really know what to expect at that age in terms of relationship and mentoring and helping them navigate life and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Brian:

But I I do I do find that that it's, like, a little bit hard to relate to know like, to know when I think that, like and I just see this, like, with people that I know from all walks of life, all stages of life. Mhmm. You know? It's like people become motivated. I feel like that, like, motivating factors, whether it's motivated to start a business or motivated to do well in their in some other career or, you know, I I feel like motivation changes over time.

Brian:

Yeah. And we no one person can know, A, what motivates another person really deep down, and B, when motivation is gonna strike. I know.

Justin:

As a parent, that's really so frustrating because you just desperately wanna be able to if you could orchestrate it, you would. You know? And it's it's yeah. That's the hardest thing about being a parent is the

Brian:

I think it it even like, just outside of the parenting thing, but just like because, you know, we just see it with, like, people in our industry trying to spew advice to other people in our industry.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Brian:

That's that's what always gets to me is, like, nobody could possibly know what is motivating other people Yeah. And and where they're actually coming from. And and one thing I I'm continuously learning myself, but also sort of just amazed to think about how influenced I've been. Like, this is something, I don't know, here in my forties that I think a lot about now about, like, where I'm at in my career and my work and my business and how much like, what exactly were the most influencing factors for for me that led me to the decisions that I made and to the motivations that I that that brought me to doing this business versus that business or or Mhmm. Selling or not selling or doing this or that.

Brian:

Right? Like, can just look back at, like, a string of, like, you know, sort of, like, influential moments or influential people who who've entered or or left and reentered my life at different times. And so if I look at other people in our industry who might, on the surface, seem like they're so similar to us, like somebody who does exactly what I do. Right? Like, maybe they're in a similar type of job, type of business.

Brian:

But their last twenty years still have so many different influencing factors, different different people, different mastermind groups. They went to different conferences. They come from a different place in the world. Yeah. They come from a different family.

Brian:

Like or or their experience with business a was different than my business A, so their business B is gonna be very different from my business B, and they're gonna make different decisions off of that. There are so many different factors that like, it's so hard to sort of Like, that that's the thing with like, I I could I could share what has worked for me or what I think makes sense in my mind. Mhmm. But there's no possible way for me to know how my advice will land with you. Yeah.

Brian:

You know? I can't

Justin:

That's why I do think sharing stories is helpful. I I mentioned to you beforehand, I was just reading Tony Dinh's new newest newsletter.

Brian:

Yeah. Tell me about that.

Justin:

I highly recommend this getting on his newsletter. I mean, I I think folks will be familiar with him. He's the

Brian:

I feel like I've seen the name, but I haven't really followed him until you sent it today.

Justin:

He's the guy he there was like before Elon took over Twitter, there was like this kind of eruption of indie hacker content. And a lot of it was garbage. But Tony was one of these people that was like, hey. I think he's from Vietnam. And he was just like he was working in public and sharing kind of what he was doing.

Justin:

And he built this app called TypingMind, which I purchased at one point. He's doing incredible. I So remember him talking about the early revenue for it. And I was like, you know, was $3,000 a month and 5,000. Now it's making a 130,000 to a $160,000 a month.

Brian:

It's it's unreal.

Justin:

And now the the a lot of these are one time purchases. But now the recurring revenue from the B2B team version has exceeded 50% of monthly revenue. So let's just say Oh, interesting. Is 70 to one sorry. 70,000 to 80,000 MRR business, like actual recurring revenue.

Justin:

But

Brian:

Yeah. So for for listeners, I was just looking at this today sort of for the first time. I might have seen it around before this, but like, okay. So this this product TypingMind, it's sort of like an interface for chatting with all the tools at once, right? Like you can chat with OpenAI, you can chat with Anthropic, you know, in one interface.

Brian:

Yes. It's got a bunch of like a bunch of other, like, power features and stuff built into it.

Justin:

Yeah. The best chat for UI for all AI models. Yeah.

Brian:

Yeah. And so I guess on the consumer side or like the individual user side, he's selling it as a one time lifetime

Justin:

Mhmm.

Brian:

Fee starting at $39, like up to up to $99, which is like Mhmm. If you're thinking about these as like one time and you get lifetime access, that's

Justin:

Yep.

Brian:

How how do you make a business on that? And then

Justin:

Well, ChatGPT is an $800,000,000 MRR business. The TAM

Brian:

is just So you just gotta be doing the crazy volume. And then I guess he has this Teams side, which is the SaaS version, which is, I don't know, what, like a $100 a month up to, like, $200 a month per user or something like that.

Justin:

Get to the team stuff here. Okay. So where's the okay. He's got a whole other thing.

Brian:

It's like a whole other site somewhere.

Justin:

Yeah. Okay. $83 a month, a $166 a month. Oh, that's you know, so it's $99.01 $99.02 99 per month.

Brian:

And I think there's a free version. Like, you can just start using it without even logging logging in, I think.

Justin:

Yeah. Fourteen day free trial on the team version. And then on the

Brian:

But the individual one, if you just, like, sort of close out of the of the sales page, you could just start using it, I think.

Justin:

Okay. Let's just see here. So I can just start new chat. Oh, yeah. It's right down here.

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

Yeah. Like, won't say like, you're not logged in.

Justin:

What is the best podcast about bootstrapping with the word panel in the title? Okay. It does make it asks me to enter OpenAI key.

Brian:

Yeah. Anyway, like so so you've you've been following him since, like, the beginning of this business probably?

Justin:

I think it was even before, he had this product called Blackmagic that I think was like a kind of a Twitter posting tool.

Brian:

Oh, okay. This is that guy?

Justin:

Yep. And so he he got that up to $5,000 a month in 2022. I mean, this is something else that came out.

Brian:

Interesting. Okay. So so I saw that black magic thing floating around, and people were excited about it. And it and I sort of haven't followed him since. And so he got that up to 5 k a month.

Brian:

Mhmm. And I guess it it you know, we we've sort of seen those sort of, like, fade away into into the ether. Right? So that I

Justin:

think he sold that one.

Brian:

Yeah. Okay. So he sold that one off, and now now his next one was a smash hit, essentially.

Justin:

Yes. And I think this is also what what is instructive about all of this, and I think is actually should be very encouraging to you. And this also came up in the conversation between Des Trainer and John Collison, is just how fast these AI businesses can grow. They were talking about I can't remember which company it was now. They were just like, this is a two year old company, and they're already doing, like, a 100,000,000 in revenue.

Justin:

You know? Like, they're like, this used to be like, you would go public at a 100,000,000 in the old days, you know?

Brian:

But even even this one, you know, this bootstrapped one Tony did like, to be at a 150 k a month, you know, he must have started this in, what, 2022 or '23?

Justin:

2023. Yeah. So in Two years. Two years. Yeah.

Justin:

Like, at this rate, he will pass transistor for sure in the next couple of years. Like, that is wild to me. Like, in this short little window.

Brian:

So my question on, like, looking at this business again, I haven't really been following him. Where does the so it's it's hard to accept the simple premise that, like, building around the space of AI is your ticket to a 150 k into a month. Like, just just that alone can't be it. Like, what is the distribution? How how do you get that that high of of volume?

Justin:

Yeah. Well, he says Like, he does see

Brian:

how it's how it's solving an important problem that people like, that's gotta be a a big part of it. Right? But still, it's like

Justin:

This is wild. Most of my sales are from word-of-mouth. I've been attempting other marketing channels from time to time, but so far, nothing has worked for me. In my latest paid ad campaign, I've spent $600 so far resulting in only two conversions. I really suck at marketing in general.

Justin:

I'm just quoting. But I'm not worried too much about it. I believe that if I can make an exceptionally good product and have a decent initial user base, that might be the actual key. Customers will come naturally.

Brian:

So I think okay. Like, I just wanna say something about that. I I think that I think he's I think that's probably very true.

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

What what he's saying here. And the the little that I know about this product, which I literally was just looking at it today, I think, for the first time

Justin:

Mhmm.

Brian:

What it gets right is it it does solve a simple problem

Justin:

Mhmm.

Brian:

In a simple like, people wanna compare answers from different models, from different services at the same time. And and I I guess I could I I think when he says, like, it's literally just the the value of the product and the word-of-mouth, like, that is literally where word-of-mouth comes from. Word-of-mouth only happens if it's genuinely solving a painful problem in unique way that people just can't help but talk about. Right? And I think that's probably true.

Brian:

And I think that's where you get this lightning in a bottle, like, oh, I don't do any real marketing. It's just word-of-mouth. There definitely is some actual marketing fire that must have happened that people either don't realize is happening or for like, there's you probably had some Twitter juice in the very early days that helped it

Justin:

Yes.

Brian:

Helped it get started. You know?

Justin:

Yeah. I mean, I just asked ChatGPT how did this thing become so popular. Where's my they it said the perfect timing play. Right? Yeah.

Justin:

I'm sorry. This is Claude. Typing Mine was built on in one day after ChatGPT's API release in March 2023. So he was early. The API came out.

Justin:

He was like, I'm building on this. And he captured that early wave of enthusiasm. And so it does help.

Brian:

Just to be clear for listeners on that point, like, yes, he had he had the the brilliant timing Mhmm. But he still got the problem right. Because there were a lot of products at that same time just wrapping ChatGPT.

Justin:

Yes.

Brian:

Yes. This one did something a little bit different.

Justin:

Yeah. The the product was actually good. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Justin:

Bring your own API key was interesting because then he's not paying for tokens. So he he figured out business model and like positioning around pricing and value and all that stuff is so important. And he just found this combination that made sense. People pay him for this portal, basically, that allows them to connect to their existing ChatGPT account that they have, use their own tokens, and he's just the interface. Right?

Justin:

Yeah. I I do think it's still instructive in terms of us. One is just that, yes, having a big market that's increasing and growing and has a large total area is not sufficient. It's necessary, but not sufficient. You need other ingredients.

Justin:

But I do think it should be encouraging for you with your building maybe we could talk about Agent OS now. You're building Agent OS.

Brian:

I do feel some of that, like, natural energy for sure. Like like, demand, there there's this is definitely the the first real feeling of a wave in a market that I've that I've felt Yeah. In in any of my businesses. So so, you know, and and what it means what that what that actually means day to day is like, there's a wind at my back.

Justin:

Like Yeah.

Brian:

Like, I haven't even built half of what I wanna actually build in Builder Methods in terms of, like, what it's gonna offer, what the product is gonna look like. I'm not even close. Even Agent OS, they've just released two point o sort of quietly this week. I'm gonna do more of a splash next week with a video and stuff. But, like, I'm pretty happy with two point o, but, like, it's still, like, it's still the beginning.

Brian:

Yes. But people are coming in naturally every day. They're coming to the YouTube channel. You know? I am getting those subscribers every day every day.

Brian:

I'm getting you know, paying customers for a product that barely even exists already. You

Justin:

know? Yes.

Brian:

It's it's definitely lighting a fire under me to to, like like, I constantly feel the urgency of, like, trying to deliver on this promise every day. There's so many projects that need to need to get done in order to ship everything.

Justin:

Yeah. So sorry. Did did I miss it? Is two point o out?

Brian:

Yes. Woo hoo.

Justin:

Where's my

Brian:

I deployed it two nights ago.

Justin:

Alright. I'm gonna some Yeah. Of these little clapping emojis here. Oh, I'll give you one of these celebrate too. Congrats, man.

Justin:

That's awesome. I'm looking at the site Version two point o changes. This is live. It's Yes. It's here.

Brian:

This is live. The only thing I haven't done yet really is is record, like, the official new video, which I'm hoping to record tomorrow and then get published on YouTube next week. And once that is out, I'll do, like, the actual, like, hey. Like, here's an email broadcast about it and everything. But I I did send it to my Discord community for the pro members, and people are finding it on GitHub.

Brian:

And a couple people found it on Twitter. I haven't really tweeted about it, but it's it's really it's been like it was a huge lift, huge project to get this out. Both AgentOS two point o itself and this new doc site that you're looking at. Yeah. Like, every page on here has gone through multiple iterations of edits to to make sure that it's as clear as possible.

Justin:

By the way, your stuff always looks incredible. In terms of it being thought out and complete and well designed, I'm always impressed at how fast I mean, to you, it might not feel fast, but how fast you're able to produce this kind of volume and quantity is crazy.

Brian:

I I appreciate that, man. And it's it is a little it is a little bit crazy to me, like, how how much I stress over things like font size and colors. And, like, how can I make this clear and easy to read? You know? Like like, you'll see a lot of these pages.

Brian:

I I'm just gonna, like, nerd out on some stuff here. So, like, if you go if you go to, like, the installation page

Justin:

Yes.

Brian:

Yeah. Like like, the headlines with the number labels. Yeah. And then, like, other other ones have, like, different versions of those of those labels and the copyable, you know, code snippets and, like

Justin:

Looks so good.

Brian:

Like, to me, like yeah. These are like little bells and whistles and stuff. But like, as a user, as a as a customer of a product Yep. This is what I want. I wanna just go to the docs and get get the information I need quickly and easily.

Brian:

I don't wanna, like, sift through or or wonder why half of it is not documented.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Brian:

So I went through multiple rounds of of it. And, you know, I I heavily used Claude to help me write stuff. Yes. But but even that, I went through, like, multiple rewrites and reorganization of stuff.

Justin:

Dude, this looks great. And yeah. So what's your plan now for, like, getting it out for you're gonna make the video? Is that the

Brian:

yeah. Just the video is sort of like the the final piece of, like, this big project of getting it out. So I'll I'll get the video out next week. I'll do it like a broadcast email. Then it's on to like the next phase of development in builder methods, which is I think oh, and also I have an October workshop on October 21.

Brian:

Okay. Which is going to like also be a deep dive into Agent OS.

Justin:

Is that on where can people find out about that?

Brian:

So click on resources. Yeah. Go to workshops.

Justin:

Okay.

Brian:

The second one down. Nice. So even that one like like, back to the the demand thing, the wave. So this one right now is on sale for $37 a ticket. Yep.

Brian:

I've already sold, like, 30 seats, I think, in it. And that was off of, like, one like, a one line mention in in last week's newsletter. Nothing else. No tweets. Nothing else.

Brian:

Haven't haven't mentioned it on on YouTube. And these and this is I think it's either, like, 25 or 30 purchases of these are non pro members because pro pro members get in for free. Mhmm. So it's like there's just this natural

Justin:

Well, dude, like, I'm gonna take this link, and I'm gonna post it in our team's Slack. And I'm gonna say, I highly recommend that everybody on the team go to this. Here's the here's the interesting thing about this is, you know, when we talk about pull from the customer, like the customer is pulling for a product instead of you pushing it? This is what I'm talking about. Yeah.

Justin:

This is one of those circumstances where even think about what I've been thinking about and talking about. I'm I'm like exploring Vercels v zero. And I just downloaded Cursor the other day. And I'm thinking about how we compete. I'm thinking about these short iterative loops.

Justin:

I'm thinking about how I can see the potential for AI and how it could help us develop faster and better and all these things. And now I have this energy, and I need to do something with it. And Yeah. It's there's this and I obviously, I'm not alone in that. Like, every software company, agency, bank, government, everyone is like, what do we do with this?

Justin:

Because we don't want to get left behind. And they're looking for somewhere to put this energy. That's where the pull from the market comes is I'm just looking for opportunities. And I love these workshops for that. It's a natural place to put some energy.

Justin:

And

Brian:

Like, go yeah. Like, just to go like, people are just hungry to learn. And I and, you know, I I keep getting comments on on the YouTube videos and everything. And, you know, you you get your you'll always get your your share of, like, snarky, annoying, negative YouTube comments. But, like, there's a lot of just real people who are just consuming as much you know, professional developers who are just consuming as much content as they possibly could because it's like a it's just a topic that they are hungry to learn.

Brian:

Hungry to hungry for, like, what's happening right now, like, this month. You know?

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, dude.

Brian:

This Yeah. Like, it's like, it it feels good to have this, like, wind at my back. At the same time, I feel like it puts even more pressure on me to act as fast as possible Yeah. Which is difficult. Yeah.

Brian:

So I think the next phase now, you know, with agent like, agent OS took too many it feels like it took me too many weeks to get it out, but I'm happy that I with where it ended up. Yeah. Now it's on to the next thing, which is doing the workshop, but then I want to develop I need to really start developing the content for the pro members. So I don't think it's gonna be like big courses, really. It it's just gonna be like a series of training videos, and and they might even just be more project based.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Brian:

Right? So I am gonna be building a bunch of tools using Agent OS.

Justin:

Cool.

Brian:

So I think I'm just gonna use that as, like, the doc like the material for documented videos. Like, you can get all the all the official Agent OS docs on the website that you just showed for free.

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

But if you really wanna get your hands dirty and and build some projects and follow along and like then then that's where these, like, private videos just for the members are gonna be. You can watch me build this app. You can watch me build that app. Something that's been developing already in the in the Discord community is like, we've been talking about this. So, like, in Agent OS, there's this concept of defining your standards.

Brian:

There's a folder called standards, and that's where, like, I put all of my coding standards for how I want my Rails applications to be designed. Oh my I always use make I always write Tailwind in this way, and I always have these weird opinions about how stimulus should be done. And Mhmm. So I put all that into my standards. Right?

Brian:

Then there's other people in the Discord who are like Python developers. There's other people who are like Laravel developers. And so, like, we're gonna start everyone's gonna start to share their own standards.

Justin:

That's

Brian:

cool. And there's gonna be like a there's gonna be like a channel for Laravel, a channel for Rails, like so people can just like share these like

Justin:

Is there a is there a tool or a process for taking an existing code base and saying, can you develop the initial spec from this initial code base? Like, there's a there's a some good ways to do that?

Brian:

The the first core command, if you will, in in the using Agent OS is called plan product.

Justin:

Okay.

Brian:

So that's like before you even get into planning features, you just plan the product. And what that generates is your product mission statement, your product roadmap, and the tech stack. And and that can be done for a brand new product that you're starting up, or you can install AgentOS into your existing product. It's gonna analyze your code base. It's gonna and and you can write up the mission.

Brian:

And then you can just update the roadmap to be like, this is where we're at in it.

Justin:

I'm gonna become a pro member today. I'm I'm I'm in. I'm in. The other thing is that's great about this is, you know, I'm still I flip flop on AI every week. I see I'm existential crisis and see it as a threat and a negative and then flip to, oh, this is great.

Justin:

But as soon as you get a taste of even what I was showing earlier, here's how I built a prototype in thirty seconds. Once you get a taste of that, you're like, damn, I want more of this. I want to get this going in our existing rails project. I want to get this going in this Laravel project. I've got old apps that I built five years ago that need to be fixed.

Justin:

Want to get that You just get this hunger. And yeah. Then you're like just looking for somewhere to put that energy. So

Brian:

Yeah, man. That's awesome. I'm excited to, like, transition into, like, the next phase. Because my vision for not only the business, but for what I'm doing day to day Yeah. Is like, I wanna be building apps.

Brian:

I wanna be building tools, and I wanna be creating videos. Yeah. That's what I want my job to be, and that's what I want this business model to be built around. Right? And so up until now, spending all this time just on AgentOS, it felt a little bit like, yes, this thing is like core to my business, but I'm not actually able to build real tools because I'm so busy building AgentOS itself.

Brian:

Mhmm. So I have a long list of, like, small tool ideas that I wanna build that I'm that I'm I'm also gonna use these as as projects that I document and make videos for for the members on. Yeah. But like but also things that the business needs. Right?

Brian:

So, like, one one thing is, like, I have all this content on YouTube. Every YouTube video I do really needs to also be a blog post on the site. Mhmm. Like, I I I really, I should just have a tool that I could just feed a finished YouTube video into, and it just generates a blog post with all the little details that I that I want on it. Mhmm.

Brian:

Start to get start to get some SEO juice on the site going.

Justin:

And by the way, that is a perfect kind of place for your natural propensities, which is I can imagine this thing automatically generates a blog post, but then you you could have a productized person that you've hired to come in and now like, hire somebody to actually make those blog posts great. Like, you don't have to do all that work. You could be Right. Hiring a

Brian:

few AI. AI could also do that.

Justin:

Well, AI could do it too. But I I I think there's still gonna be AI plus humans is gonna be Yeah. Super powerful.

Brian:

Well, I also think that there's a difference between actual blog posts and more like articles. Mhmm. Like because the the YouTube videos, I I script out I I script them out. I basically write an article. I just read it onto the camera.

Brian:

Mhmm. Those are more like informational, educational articles. And then there's like blog posts, which is more like what I write in the newsletter. Because that that's the other thing. Every every Friday, I I send my newsletter for build for Builder Methods, and it's there's a personal message from me.

Brian:

And that's just like sort of my my current quick opinion about something, and that should be a short blog post

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

On on an actual blog, you know, which I right now, it's only self contained in the newsletters. Like, just little systems I need to start to put into place. There needs to be some email automation on the back end of, like, after you become a subscriber. Right now, I have one automated email, but there's gotta be something that promotes AgentOS, something that promotes Builder Methods Pro.

Justin:

Mhmm. Yeah, dude.

Brian:

And, you know, just trying to put, like, assemble these things, like, one one little piece at a time.

Justin:

Yeah. That's the I mean, that's the hard part is, like, you can feel a wave coming, but you have to paddle out and get it.

Brian:

Yeah. Exactly. Yep. What do you got going on on your end?

Justin:

I think well, I think we should end on whether or not we could go to a cabin in the woods with no phone or social media. Pascal in the chat just said, is this the support group for people who are too much on their phones?

Brian:

I mean, Aaron this is the segment of the show where we're just gonna react to whatever Aaron and Ian talked about last week. Right? If you if you haven't heard it yet, I this was this was one of the all time great episodes of Mostly Technical, Aaron recapping his his vision quest, if you will. Yep. And I I I really resonated with a lot of his takeaways, especially the the creative mindset stuff.

Brian:

Mhmm. And and I told him that. But I I'm I'm sure I'm not alone in this in in listening to it and how he was describing how he went to this went to this cabin or whatever with no phone, with no Internet, with no computer, and spending multiple, like, multiple nights, like and and He spent he spent like, I'm I'm convinced that I am incapable of going even just an hour of just of just me and my thoughts. Can't happen.

Justin:

Yes.

Brian:

I need mental stimulation.

Justin:

I mean

Brian:

And and I'm a total addict, and that needs that needs to be fixed. So

Justin:

I think what is so great I mean, is what's great about podcasting. This is what's great about working in public, which can really just be I'm going to engage with the public on a topic. But this Aaron sharing his experience both in his newsletter, and then on the Mostly Technical Podcast. It just this is a force for good in the world. It makes made me think, it made you think, it made lots of other people think.

Justin:

Whether or not everybody goes and does their own vision quest, or whether or not we're just more mindful about all this, I think is the point. And, you know, for myself, I started definitely, when I got off Twitter, that was a big thing. Like, I log in maybe once or twice a month to check my DMs, check transistor mentions and all that stuff. But not having Twitter on my phone, not having Twitter as a omnipresent tab. Right?

Justin:

Like always in my we were using this as an example before. But like not having it, you know, always on my browser, massive. Right? Mhmm. And See, like, that part of

Brian:

it, I feel like I don't have the the same pain point that a lot of people express. Because I I I definitely agree that, like, I'm I've been extremely bored with the content that I see on Twitter. Yeah. And I I don't think that it actually prevents me from, like, getting a a lot of good work done and making my hours count when I'm here in the office. I I feel like I'm pretty good at, like, pushing distractions away.

Brian:

Even though I I do still check Twitter, like, quite often throughout the day, but I don't I don't get sucked into it because I get so I get bored with it within a minute.

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

So I still just come right back to the work.

Justin:

I do find out

Brian:

But I do the the thing that I do resonate with and and and feel like is the the frenetic energy of like

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

And and sort of like the urgency of like, why do why do I have to keep working so hard on so many projects in such a compressed amount of time? I do wish I had a little bit more space to breathe.

Justin:

We talked about this last episode or the episode before, even this idea of having a sabbatical, this idea of having some time to I mean, I've even I'm not religious at all anymore. But I've thought like, I've been thinking about going back to church just to sit in a pew and be bored. Like not go on my phone and just be like in this place and just like look at stained glass windows and like being able to stop the fire hose of everything for a moment and just let my brain rest. I can see, you know, why we need that as humans. And I I can see why it's helpful to have moments in our week where we have that and maybe doing it as a retreat.

Justin:

I I also think that the like, I've I've removed all the social media apps from my phone. And what's interesting is it is it definitely like, take out my phone. I'm like, nothing here. The problem is I still have Reddit on there. I gotta take Reddit off.

Justin:

Because now I just find myself going to Reddit all the time. So it's like I'm you're always your brain is just looking for like, oh, I can't have Skittles. Well, give me M and M's. Oh, I can't have M and M's. Well, give me chips.

Justin:

Oh, I can't have chips. Like, we're just like, what's in the pantry? And we we look around, and then it's like, okay, well, you know, I keep going down in the pantry until I get to raisins, you know, and then I'm eating raisins. But it's like, we we gotta have, we can limit what we're exposed to. And

Brian:

I see I might help. I also treat, like, checking that stuff as the mental breather. Right? So I I work on something creative, like like difficult and creative for half an hour or an hour. And then I'm like, alright, I just need I need a breather.

Brian:

And and that's when I'll open up Twitter or or I'll open up my email inbox, which is not great. Like, what what happens is Twitter, I'll open it up for two seconds, be bored, and I'll shut it. Mhmm. Email, I'll open it up, and I'll see a bunch of emails. A couple of them are important from people that I know I need to get back to.

Brian:

But I'm pretty good about, like, saying, like, okay. I'll I'll handle that later. Mhmm. But but now I've seen it. So now I just planted a little seed that I know is just gonna stick in there, and and and that adds up to five or six emails that are that are it's it just adds some mental weight, and I and I don't need that.

Brian:

Mhmm. Have you done retreat, like solo retreats at all ever? Like strategic like like for business purposes, if you will?

Justin:

I mean, what I have done is you know, I travel a lot for conferences. And what I have done is take extra time before or after, like, couple days to just be by myself and just spend lots of time walking around or sitting in my hotel room or so I have done that. Would like to do more this.

Brian:

Conference because it's, like, so social. It's a it's a good way to decompress or

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

Pre compress.

Justin:

I I'm trying to also just do this more in my daily life, like or my weekly life of I work for myself. Like, there's days where the best thing I could do for myself is just take two hours and just go on a really long walk. And so I've tried to do that more too. But I do think there's something about this idea of going to a cabin or something. People are joking in in chat about using Zach Gilbert's Wisconsin cabin to do that.

Justin:

And I was even thinking like, you know, there's these hacker houses and people start these kind of hacker retreat centers or whatever. It's almost like we need the opposite now. We need like, here, I'll set up a place for you to go. And it's like there's no Wi Fi.

Brian:

I've done it a couple times. Never like Aaron with, like, totally, you know, breaking my phone. I've never done that. Yeah. But I can remember probably three or four times that that I've gone a couple times were just day trips, and and a few of them were overnight, just solo, specifically for business planning purposes.

Brian:

I haven't done it in at least two years, but I used to I live in Connecticut. I live in, like, Coastal Connecticut, so I'll hop on Amtrak from here.

Justin:

Oh, that's cool.

Brian:

And I'll and I'll go from here to Boston and back. And so that's like a that's like a like a three hour train ride Mhmm. There and, you know, each way. And it's beautiful too because it's, like, through Connecticut and Rhode Island, the train is going, like, over the water. It's really nice.

Brian:

Mhmm. And Amtrak is nice because it's like it's it's like a plane, but you have like so much extra leg room and it also has Wi Fi. So I I treat it as like, oh, I'm gonna get some like creative work done and it ends up being like a regular work day, but but I'm on a train.

Justin:

Mhmm. You know? Yeah.

Brian:

But I I have done that, like, just for the purpose of, like, getting out of my house and and making me think about some big new business I wanna start or whatever the or or some big decision I needed to to make. Yeah. And it's I feel like for me, they've they've always been anticlimactic. Like, I'll I'll come back and be like, I just yeah. I thought about a lot of stuff.

Brian:

It's it's stuff that I've been thinking about anyway. Yeah. I guess it's nice to get out of the routine of being in the house. But

Justin:

I mean, getting out of routine is it's has its own benefits. I I do think that having a deliberate time where you're getting away from technology, where you're getting away from everything that is kind of in your brain and infecting you to just give yourself some space. And again, to just be bored. Like, even like you were joking in our telegram chat, like, couldn't sit on a log for two hours or whatever.

Brian:

Incapable. Nope.

Justin:

And, you know, even that, like, that's maybe to get out and just spend thirty minutes sitting on a log is is not a bad practice. And then to eventually get yourself up. I think

Brian:

That's where travel comes in. This is like this weekend. This is why I love travel, whether it's road trips or or plane trips. This weekend, we're heading up to New Hampshire again. Got a little hotel.

Brian:

We're gonna do some some hiking, see some leaves. Yep. It's something we we try to do every October. And, you know, I'm gonna drive like four hours, and we we love it. Like, we we this is with the family and everything, but like, it's this is one of those chances where it's like, I'm gonna be driving for four hours.

Brian:

Just, you know but it's of course, it's like with the family and it's with music and or podcasts playing. So it's not exactly like the like like a meditation, but it's it is a way to, like, force me away from Yeah. You know, day to day work. And then, you know, we we like to just we also like to do these you know, we travel a lot, but we sort of just live normally, but in other places for a few days.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Brian:

Right? Like, we'll do a hike. We'll take we'll take the kids down to the pool and the hotel, But that only occupies like two or three hours in the day. Mhmm. And the rest of it is we're we're just sort of hanging out, you know, whether it's in an Airbnb or somewhere.

Brian:

Yeah. We're not like packing the day with back to back stuff, but it is a way to like break away. And, yeah, I'll I'll bring my laptop, but it's like, I'm not gonna use it all the time. And it's like, it's just different enough to to break away from the routine. That is a good breather.

Brian:

You know?

Justin:

I think there is yeah. I I think any one of the things Emmett is asking in the chat is, you know, is this kind of a luxury that you can only do when your business is doing well or you have the margin and space to do it? And I think that's a fair question. I will say that this retreat that I went on that Sean Blanc organized in Colorado, that would have been 02/2017. This, it wasn't solo, but this retreat had a substantial impact on my life.

Justin:

And just getting out of my routine and creating space for reflection for other people to help me think through stuff was like and and to be perfectly frank, like I was at a real low point at this moment. I'd been depressed financially. I was not doing great. It was like for me to go on this trip was it it was I I didn't feel like I was going on this trip out of abundance, a place of abundance. That's for sure.

Justin:

And I I found no. That's no guarantee that it will it's not a panacea. But there is something about even if you're like, not don't have a lot of margin to create some space for reflection to happen, I think, is is a good thing to do for sure.

Brian:

I completely agree with you. I've had the same experience with retreats like this. And, yeah, they're not cheap, you know, per person. So obviously, you know but it's it's also I I don't see it as like a just a nice perk. It like you said, like, there's there's there's definitely an ROI on that sort of investment.

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

The the but but looking back to the very early years of my career when I was just starting out, I do remember distinctly like, I became a freelancer in 02/2008. I left my job. And I think from, like, o eight like, for the first, like, three years or so, like, I didn't leave my my bedroom apartment. I just did some freelance web design work. I knew nobody in the industry.

Brian:

Nobody knew me. I just did quiet work, word-of-mouth, doing some client work, and and I got by. Mhmm. But then I started going to local meetups

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

In in Connecticut in, like, suburban Connecticut

Justin:

Yeah.

Brian:

Which which cost nothing to go to. Mhmm. You know? And I started meeting other professional web designers who actually live around like, holy shit. People do what I do and they live around here, you know, and started to meet people.

Brian:

And and so that's for free. Anyone can do that. Yeah. And and and that was fifteen, twenty years ago. Like, there's there's even way more like, coworking spaces were not even a thing back then.

Justin:

Yeah. And once you've done a meetup, you can also you'll meet some people, and you could grab two or three other people and say, hey, like, why don't we just all drive over here? My parents have a cabin. Let's just like spend the weekend in my parents cabin. It'll be free.

Justin:

We can buy some groceries. And let's just like be super intentional about whatever. Reflection, having a hot seat session, just encouraging each other, I think that's also open to other folks as well.

Brian:

And then the next step after that was attending MicroConf. Yeah. Which usually requires a plane ticket and a hotel. So, you know, a couple 100 to a thousand bucks to go to just be an attendee. But again, like that was instrumental because it like, that's where I met most of my industry friends who we then started to buddy up and do these retreats.

Brian:

Yeah. And also just like off like also just remote mastermind groups came out of that, you know? Yeah. And like, I always say this, looking back on those years, first three or four years of my freelance career, not much interesting happened. I just did websites for some clients.

Brian:

And then year four, year five, I start meeting people in person. I start following the Mixergy podcast, the Stars of the Rest of Us podcast. I start going to MicroConf. All of a sudden, interesting things are starting to happen. Yep.

Brian:

And and they don't just fall into my lap. It's inspiration. It's learning from what other people are doing. It's like, oh, that guy, 80, has the same exact web design skills as I have, and I'm just making client websites, and he's making Woo themes. Mhmm.

Brian:

Like, oh, like, we're literally the same age, same skill set. Yep. Like, I didn't know he existed until I got to know him. And same thing with so many other people. And and then I started working on, like, Restaurant Engine.

Brian:

And that was, like, the first SaaS that I was able to bootstrap and sell, and and then people start following me because of that story. And then and then it's, one thing after another. And, like, none of that would have happened unless I left the house in the beginning.

Justin:

Yes. Yeah. I was just I just kinda looked through some photos here of, like, MicroConf and, you know, like yeah. Like, those moments of meeting other people, you can't that that you can't put a value on that. It's, like, so key.

Justin:

Yep. I think that's a good place to leave it.

Brian:

Yes, sir.

Justin:

Another good one that we do I think we capped it pretty good. We kept things moving a bit better this time. That was good. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian:

That was good.

Justin:

Thanks, everyone, for joining us in the chat. Again, Zach, Pascal, Emmett, Junta.

Brian:

The crew.

Justin:

There's all sorts of great folks in here. Josh Frank, good to see you again. Yeah. Nice to nice to see the group. Bo, I see you in there too.

Justin:

Keith. Nice. Keith made it for the first time.

Brian:

Thank you, folks.

Justin:

And yeah.

Brian:

And and thanks for folks listening. I know there's a lot of people out there who, you know, don't show up here in the live chat. But also, if if you have been listening, let us know.

Justin:

Oh, dude. DM

Brian:

us. Send an email. Just just let us know that, like, people are because that's the thing about podcasting, especially relatively new shows like this one. Mhmm. It's it's silent out there.

Brian:

You never know who who's tuning in. So, hosts really wanna hear from you.

Justin:

Yeah. Let me give a little shout out to this comment we got on Blue Sky from Alex Dugleby or Dugleby. Dugleby. Must be Dugleby. He had a great post where he actually clipped this this is the ultimate love language for a podcaster.

Brian:

He I didn't see that one.

Justin:

He used Overcast's clipping engine and clipped this one segment where we were talking about, you know, whether there's gonna be another generation of senior developers because all the junior level has just been cut off. So nice to have this feedback. Alex, I saw it. Made my day. Thanks for sharing that.

Brian:

Yeah. Thank you, folks.

Justin:

Alright, everyone. We'll see you later.

Brian:

Later.